Jocks in High School end up work menial jobs?

In summary, most people who play football or any sport in high school end up with jobs that are similar to what they would have if they didn't play sports.
  • #36
LightbulbSun said:
If you want evidence that most jocks are dumb, just listen to pre and post game interviews for professional athletes. They can't even articulate on their own sport without resorting to 10000000 year old cliches for christ sake.

Just because something is a cliche doesn't make it false. You can imagine interviewing a mathematician after he proves a theorem:

Mathematician: "And then I used induction on n..."

Viewer: "haha this guy can't even do math without resorting to 1000 year old tactics like induction. And then integration by parts? Man, so cliche."
 
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  • #37
LightbulbSun said:
It does support the argument that they're dumb though. At least most of them are.

No, it really doesn't. A few pro-athletes who can't give a good interview 1) doesn't really mean they're dumb, just that they don't interview well (let's face it, some of those questions deserve cliche answers, "How did you feel when you fumbled the ball that lost the game?") and 2) doesn't mean all other or even a majority of other athletes are dumb. You might want to take some time to meet the athletes at your school to appreciate this.
 
  • #38
I don't know of any study tracking the lifetime earnings of jocks v. nerds, but I do think that the NCAA is a fundamentally bad organization. At top tier universities the student athletes bring in huge amounts of money. That money goes to all sorts of people and organizations, but per NCAA rules none of it goes directly to the athletes who are the principal earners of the money. IMO, that is just wrong.
 
  • #39
CareerBuilder.com asked over 6,000 full-time workers age 30 and older to categorize their high school persona, and then compared those personas in terms of job level, salary, industry and job satisfaction. Categories included personas such as student government, athlete, geek, honor society, cheerleader, drama club, teacher's pet and class clown.
...
Student government and honor society members and athletes ranked highest among those who earn an annual salary of $50,000 or more at 49 percent, 47 percent and 45 percent respectively.
...

Source: Study by Career Builder
 
  • #40
maze said:
Just because something is a cliche doesn't make it false. You can imagine interviewing a mathematician after he proves a theorem:

Mathematician: "And then I used induction on n..."

Viewer: "haha this guy can't even do math without resorting to 1000 year old tactics like induction. And then integration by parts? Man, so cliche."

There's a difference between a cliche in mathematics, and a cliche in sports.

Q: Thoughts on the upcoming season?
A: We want to win it all.

What a waste of time even asking the question. The person asked for thoughts, not goals.
 
  • #41
OrbitalPower said:
Plus, they have the added benefit of being from upper-class backgrounds, and thus have more connections.

What are you talking about? Why do you think that most jocks come from upper-class backgrounds? I don't think that most of them do.
 
  • #42
Moonbear said:
No, it really doesn't. A few pro-athletes who can't give a good interview 1) doesn't really mean they're dumb, just that they don't interview well (let's face it, some of those questions deserve cliche answers, "How did you feel when you fumbled the ball that lost the game?") and 2) doesn't mean all other or even a majority of other athletes are dumb. You might want to take some time to meet the athletes at your school to appreciate this.

I had a bad experience concerning athletes when I was in high school. Let's just say they didn't help any to disprove the stereotype.

I agree that sports journalists ask some of dumbest questions which only deserve a cliche in response.
 
  • #43
LightbulbSun said:
There's a difference between a cliche in mathematics, and a cliche in sports.

Q: Thoughts on the upcoming season?
A: We want to win it all.


What a waste of time even asking the question. The person asked for thoughts, not goals.

Whats wrong with that answer? What would you have responded with?
 
  • #44
maze said:
Whats wrong with that answer?

1. They didn't exactly answer the question. The question is not about what they want to accomplish, but just thoughts on the upcoming season.

2. If you're being ask to articulate a little, they should try not to resort to a cliche.
 
  • #45
maze said:
What would you have responded with?

A: Well, we're playing a tough schedule this year. Our opponents record is around .550 so to expect us to win 60% of our games is being a bit idealistic. I'm hoping that if we win at least 58% of them then we'll have a shot at the postseason, possibly the division. I just think when you combine the fact that we probably have the toughest schedule in the league, along with the fact that we didn't really make any significant upgrades, that you shouldn't be too idealistic about the outcome of this season.


Of course, if you were a professional athlete and you gave that type of answer you'd be chastised for it because only cliches will suffice.
 
  • #46
LightbulbSun said:
A: Well, we're playing a tough schedule this year. Our opponents record is around .550 so to expect us to win 60% of our games is being a bit idealistic. I'm hoping that if we win at least 58% of them then we'll have a shot at the postseason, possibly the division. I just think when you combine the fact that we probably have the toughest schedule in the league, along with the fact that we didn't really make any significant upgrades, that you shouldn't be too idealistic about the outcome of this season.


Of course, if you were a professional athlete and you gave that type of answer you'd be chastised for it because only cliches will suffice.

That answer (basically "dont get your hopes up") is a very bad mindset for a competitor to have. Not just sports, but anything compeititive (chess, etc). Tiger Woods (generally considered a pretty smart guy), had the following to say about that subject:

Interviewer: "Do you expect to win?"

Tiger: "I expect to win yes, always."

Interviewer: "Every time?"

Tiger: "Yes. It's just a belief you have to have. As an athlete, as a competitor, you have to have that belief in yourself."

Question is at about 1:20
 
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  • #47
maze said:
That answer (basically "dont get your hopes up") is a very bad mindset for a competitor to have. Not just sports, but anything compeititive (chess, etc). Tiger Woods (generally considered a pretty smart guy), had the following to say about that subject:

Interviewer: "Do you expect to win?"

Tiger: "I expect to win yes, always."

Interviewer: "Every time?"

Tiger: "Yes. It's just a belief you have to have. As an athlete, as a competitor, you have to have that belief in yourself."

Question is at about 1:20


It doesn't matter what he believes, he should recognize that winning every time is near impossible. No amount of superman thinking could overcome that fact.
 
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  • #48
LightbulbSun said:
It doesn't matter what he believes, he should recognize that winning every time is near impossible. No amount of superman thinking could overcome that fact.
No, if you are competing, you need to believe that you will win every time. It should be obvious that believing you will fail is not going to help you win.
 
  • #49
I'd bet that one of the jock's teammates could get him a job somewhere. Generally though, nerds make more money than average.

Can't a person be both a jock and a nerd?
 
  • #50
dimensionless said:
I'd bet that one of the jock's teammates could get him a job somewhere. Generally though, nerds make more money than average.

Can't a person be both a jock and a nerd?

What do you mean 'generally though nerds make more on average'.

No, they DONT. Where are you coming up with these bogus statistics?
 
  • #51
Where are yours?
 
  • #52
Evo said:
No, if you are competing, you need to believe that you will win every time. It should be obvious that believing you will fail is not going to help you win.

It's not believing you will fail. It's putting things into perspective. I don't understand how putting things into perspective suddenly makes you lose your competitive edge? :confused:
 
  • #53
LightbulbSun said:
It's not believing you will fail. It's putting things into perspective. I don't understand how putting things into perspective suddenly makes you lose your competitive edge? :confused:
To win you can't have doubts. You have to know that you are doing your best, you have to be doing your best. I work in an extremely competitive field where you have to win constantly in order to just keep your job. If you aren't the best and you don't know you are the best, you might as well quit. Winning as a living is the toughest thing you'll ever take on. There are high rewards, but there are high costs emotionally.
 
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  • #54
Evo said:
To win you can't have doubts. You have to know that you are doing your best, you have to be doing your best. I work in an extremely competitive field where you have to win constantly in order to just keep your job. If you aren't the best and you don't know you are the best, you might as well quit. Winning as a living is the toughest thing you'll ever take on. There are high rewards, but there are high costs emotionally.

Hmmm...well as a competitor I was always the analyzer/putting things into perspective. It never really hurt my overall performance.
 
  • #55
Gokul43201 said:

Finally some stats! And, if we assume the usual 3% margin of error for survey results, that means the honor society members (i.e., nerds) and athletes are roughly doing equally as well as each other. Of course, there is some overlap in those groups too. We had several athletes in the honor society.

LightbulbSun said:
A: Well, we're playing a tough schedule this year. Our opponents record is around .550 so to expect us to win 60% of our games is being a bit idealistic. I'm hoping that if we win at least 58% of them then we'll have a shot at the postseason, possibly the division. I just think when you combine the fact that we probably have the toughest schedule in the league, along with the fact that we didn't really make any significant upgrades, that you shouldn't be too idealistic about the outcome of this season.


Of course, if you were a professional athlete and you gave that type of answer you'd be chastised for it because only cliches will suffice.

More important, your interview wouldn't be televised, because it wouldn't fit into the 15 sec space they have time to squeeze your sound bite into. Some of them are simply playing to what the reporters want.
 
  • #56
LightbulbSun said:
Hmmm...well as a competitor I was always the analyzer/putting things into perspective. It never really hurt my overall performance.
Really? I never had a loss in 5 years. Can you say that?

Seriously, I do not think you understand the competitive mindset. Read some books by people that are successful in sports. I don't like sports, but it will give you an idea how successful people think when they compete.
 
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  • #57
WarPhalange said:
Where are yours?

Im not the one making outragous claims, you are. So back them up, sport.
 
  • #58
dimensionless said:
Generally though, nerds make more money than average.

Cyrus said:
No, they DONT.

Cyrus said:
Im not the one making outragous claims, you are. So back them up, sport.
Clearly, both of you have made equally unsubstantiated claims.
 
  • #59
LightbulbSun said:
It doesn't matter what he believes, he should recognize that winning every time is near impossible. No amount of superman thinking could overcome that fact.

I play ping pong in competitive events. You know how many times I've gone against someone who I knew was better than me, but I won because I knew in my head that I would win? In my mind, I was very sure that I would win, and wouldn't allow myself to make mistakes because of that. The moment you think "chances are I will lose, because this person has been a far better player than me", you will lose. If you make a slight, tiny mistake, you will think "Damn, what a great player he is, forcing me to make mistakes like that". I don't know if any of this is getting through to you, but I have won far more games than I should have, through mental aspects alone.

EDIT:
dimensionless said:
Generally though, nerds make more money than average.

Jocks become CEOs while the nerds are his minions.*

*Disclaimer, I'm making claims I cannot back up with anything. I may also be completely making things up to allow for further conversation... who knows.
 
  • #60
moose said:
I play ping pong in competitive events. You know how many times I've gone against someone who I knew was better than me, but I won because I knew in my head that I would win? In my mind, I was very sure that I would win, and wouldn't allow myself to make mistakes because of that. The moment you think "chances are I will lose, because this person has been a far better player than me", you will lose. If you make a slight, tiny mistake, you will think "Damn, what a great player he is, forcing me to make mistakes like that". I don't know if any of this is getting through to you, but I have won far more games than I should have, through mental aspects alone.

Hmmm I could come up with many examples (backed by performance data) of mediocre players remaining mediocre throughout their career, but people highly praised them because they had a mental edge to them. So how do you explain the countless examples of people considered to have a mental edge, but end up having a mediocre professional career?
 
  • #61
Evo said:
Really? I never had a loss in 5 years. Can you say that?

Seriously, I do not think you understand the competitive mindset. Read some books by people that are successful in sports. I don't like sports, but it will give you an idea how successful people think when they compete.

There's a difference between being confident and being pollyanna.
 
  • #62
Moonbear said:
CareerBuilder.com said:
CareerBuilder.com asked over 6,000 full-time workers age 30 and older to categorize their high school persona, and then compared those personas in terms of job level, salary, industry and job satisfaction. Categories included personas such as student government, athlete, geek, honor society, cheerleader, drama club, teacher's pet and class clown.
...
Student government and honor society members and athletes ranked highest among those who earn an annual salary of $50,000 or more at 49 percent, 47 percent and 45 percent respectively.
...
cited by Gokul
Finally some stats! And, if we assume the usual 3% margin of error for survey results, that means the honor society members (i.e., nerds) and athletes are roughly doing equally as well as each other. Of course, there is some overlap in those groups too. We had several athletes in the honor society.
I don't think that students in student government or honor society are necessarily nerds, and that certainly wasn't the case at my high school. A number of top (academically) students, who were in student government and honor society, were popular in school. The president of the class the year ahead of mine had long hair, and he tended to be a bit anti-establishment.

In my graduating class, one of the class officers was the head cheerleader IIRC. We had a varity football player (running back) who was in my Calculus BC class, and he was a very nice guy and honors student.

Most of the kids in the honor society went on the places like Harvard, MIT, Caltech, Princeton, Yale, Standford, . . . . . , and they weren't all nerds, but in fact represented a broad spectrum of people, including athletes.
 
  • #63
Gokul43201 said:
Clearly, both of you have made equally unsubstantiated claims.

Hey hey hey, don't ruin my fun busting peoples chops pal! :wink:
 
  • #64
I enjoyed two sports as a young person - swimming, and badminton.

Yes, badminton. Not the gentle, congenial game played at backyard barbeques; the pace of the game we played was set by the teenage so-called "boat people" who just arrived in the US from Southeast Asia. In the game we played, the bird could rip your eye if it hit you wrong (this was before safety glasses were commonly worn).

I never saw any correlation between athletic ability and intellegence.
 
  • #65
I haven't met any, "jock" in my school. Maybe that's because I've been in the lab for most of the day. It's just going to get worse this coming semester. I might not even meet real people. :wink:
 
  • #66
lisab said:
I enjoyed two sports as a young person - swimming, and badminton.

Yes, badminton. Not the gentle, congenial game played at backyard barbeques; the pace of the game we played was set by the teenage so-called "boat people" who just arrived in the US from Southeast Asia. In the game we played, the bird could rip your eye if it hit you wrong (this was before safety glasses were commonly worn).

I never saw any correlation between athletic ability and intellegence.

I love badminton.
 
  • #67
At my high school the jocks were mostly dumb. But ofcourse they weren't any dumber than the average student either.
And I have never known jocks to be any less successful. Personally I tend to have a hard time conversing and getting on with most males because I know nothing about sports or cars. I'm sure this isn't helping me become any more successful. My current boss fortunately pays attention to my actual work and how well I do. But damned if we have anything in common, and I'm sure in most circumstances that will be a hinderance.

Evo said:
To win you can't have doubts. You have to know that you are doing your best, you have to be doing your best. I work in an extremely competitive field where you have to win constantly in order to just keep your job. If you aren't the best and you don't know you are the best, you might as well quit. Winning as a living is the toughest thing you'll ever take on. There are high rewards, but there are high costs emotionally.
While I don't play sports I do play chess and billiards (perhaps a sport). I pay attention to my opponents ability and contrast it with my own. I figure out what their weak points are and what mine are and determine how to exploit that and prevent my opponent from exploiting it. Knowing how good you are compared to how good your opponent is is crucial in strategizing and planning and knowing your limitations is important in figuring out when and how to take the most profitable risks. You certainly play the game like you're going to win but you have to strategize realistically.
My best friend is a really good singer so he decided to try out for American Idol. He figured he had it in the bag. He walked in there like he owned the place and only got as far as a second audition. Why? Because he didn't strategize. Because he didn't consider the fact that most of these people he was up against have been singing, taking lessons, and in training since they were kids. He didn't think about what songs would be best for a competition against these people or anything else like that. Why? Because he believed whole heartedly that he was obviously going to win.
 
  • #68
LightbulbSun said:
Hmmm I could come up with many examples (backed by performance data) of mediocre players remaining mediocre throughout their career, but people highly praised them because they had a mental edge to them. So how do you explain the countless examples of people considered to have a mental edge, but end up having a mediocre professional career?

Dang, that was my high school career as a runner. Even so, once in a while I ran a great race. And if I ran a great race once in a while, surely I should be able to hit that level all the time. I went into every race thinking I'd run one of my great races and, naturally, was more often disappointed since I was much more likely to run an average race for me and might even have a bad day.

Of course an athlete is going to say he expects to do well before hand! In fact, actually I never even admitted that the great races were particularly great. I was just frustrated that I couldn't run that way all the time.

And, actually, I wasn't exactly mediocre. I was one of the top 3 runners in the city, but then you start comparing yourself to the good runners in the state where I tended to come up just a wee bit short. Except for a few superstars at the professional level, every athlete winds up being mediocre! I think that's what a few posters are getting at when sports teaches a person a little about real life and that all people aren't "special" or just experiencing "delayed success".
 
  • #69
TheStatutoryApe said:
At my high school the jocks were mostly dumb. But ofcourse they weren't any dumber than the average student either.
And I have never known jocks to be any less successful. Personally I tend to have a hard time conversing and getting on with most males because I know nothing about sports or cars. I'm sure this isn't helping me become any more successful. My current boss fortunately pays attention to my actual work and how well I do. But damned if we have anything in common, and I'm sure in most circumstances that will be a hinderance.


While I don't play sports I do play chess and billiards (perhaps a sport). I pay attention to my opponents ability and contrast it with my own. I figure out what their weak points are and what mine are and determine how to exploit that and prevent my opponent from exploiting it. Knowing how good you are compared to how good your opponent is is crucial in strategizing and planning and knowing your limitations is important in figuring out when and how to take the most profitable risks. You certainly play the game like you're going to win but you have to strategize realistically.
You said what I should have said. I have a bad habit of forgetting people can't read my mind.

My best friend is a really good singer so he decided to try out for American Idol. He figured he had it in the bag. He walked in there like he owned the place and only got as far as a second audition. Why? Because he didn't strategize. Because he didn't consider the fact that most of these people he was up against have been singing, taking lessons, and in training since they were kids. He didn't think about what songs would be best for a competition against these people or anything else like that. Why? Because he believed whole heartedly that he was obviously going to win.
Well, you actually have to be good, not delusional. :tongue2:
 
  • #70
Well how about athletes who go on to obtain a Rhodes Sholarship?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Scholarship

The criteria:
  • literary and scholastic attainments;
  • energy to use one's talents to the full, as exemplified by fondness for and success in sports;
  • truth, courage, devotion to duty, sympathy for and protection of the weak, kindliness, unselfishness and fellowship;
  • moral force of character and instincts to lead, and to take an interest in one's fellow beings.

Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar. :rolleyes:
 
<h2>1. Why do jocks in high school often end up working menial jobs?</h2><p>There are a variety of reasons that may contribute to this phenomenon. One possible explanation is that jocks may prioritize sports over academics, leading to lower grades and fewer opportunities for higher education. Additionally, the skills and traits that make someone successful in sports, such as physical strength and athleticism, may not necessarily translate to success in the workforce.</p><h2>2. Is there a correlation between being a jock in high school and working a menial job?</h2><p>While there may be some correlation, it is important to note that correlation does not imply causation. Just because someone was a jock in high school does not necessarily mean they will end up working a menial job. There are many other factors that can influence a person's career path.</p><h2>3. Are there any successful former jocks who did not end up in menial jobs?</h2><p>Yes, there are many successful individuals who were jocks in high school and have gone on to have successful careers in various fields. Success is not limited to one specific group of people and can be achieved by anyone, regardless of their high school interests or activities.</p><h2>4. Are there any benefits to being a jock in high school?</h2><p>Absolutely! Being involved in sports can teach valuable skills such as teamwork, discipline, and time management. These skills can be beneficial in any career path and can help individuals succeed in the workforce.</p><h2>5. How can we break the stereotype that jocks in high school will end up in menial jobs?</h2><p>One way to break this stereotype is to promote and celebrate diversity in high school activities and interests. Encouraging students to explore a variety of interests and not limiting them to one label can help break down stereotypes. Additionally, highlighting successful individuals who were jocks in high school and have gone on to have successful careers can also challenge this stereotype.</p>

1. Why do jocks in high school often end up working menial jobs?

There are a variety of reasons that may contribute to this phenomenon. One possible explanation is that jocks may prioritize sports over academics, leading to lower grades and fewer opportunities for higher education. Additionally, the skills and traits that make someone successful in sports, such as physical strength and athleticism, may not necessarily translate to success in the workforce.

2. Is there a correlation between being a jock in high school and working a menial job?

While there may be some correlation, it is important to note that correlation does not imply causation. Just because someone was a jock in high school does not necessarily mean they will end up working a menial job. There are many other factors that can influence a person's career path.

3. Are there any successful former jocks who did not end up in menial jobs?

Yes, there are many successful individuals who were jocks in high school and have gone on to have successful careers in various fields. Success is not limited to one specific group of people and can be achieved by anyone, regardless of their high school interests or activities.

4. Are there any benefits to being a jock in high school?

Absolutely! Being involved in sports can teach valuable skills such as teamwork, discipline, and time management. These skills can be beneficial in any career path and can help individuals succeed in the workforce.

5. How can we break the stereotype that jocks in high school will end up in menial jobs?

One way to break this stereotype is to promote and celebrate diversity in high school activities and interests. Encouraging students to explore a variety of interests and not limiting them to one label can help break down stereotypes. Additionally, highlighting successful individuals who were jocks in high school and have gone on to have successful careers can also challenge this stereotype.

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