Karma & Easy Majors: Is College Worth It?

[Dembadon]

Where do the pretentious attitudes come from? It's like a flippin' sporting event. One "team" against the other "team" in a game to show who is superior. Who cares what program is more rigorous? Does it make people feel better about themselves to say that a given program is more intellectually demanding?

I am majoring in physics and have always loved maths and science, but it would be extremely foolish and pompous of me look down my nose at the arts majors. Explicating a short story by Hemingway isn't highly challenging; so what? Is it not enjoyable?

I'd rather converse with a humble, well spoken, and educated arts major than an arrogant, myopic scientist.

Edit: I see more value in being a well-rounded individual. I desire to become educated in both areas so as to not limit my perspective on the things I'll encounter in my lifetime.

 

[Jack21222]

Explicating a short story by Hemingway isn't highly challenging; so what? Is it not enjoyable?

I suppose it might be enjoyable for lesser minds.

*ducks*

don't ban me, it was a joke

 

[Ben Niehoff]

Dembadon, I suppose then you haven't yet met the philosophy major who claims to understand quantum mechanics better than you do.

 

[Dembadon]

I suppose it might be enjoyable for lesser minds.

*ducks*

don't ban me, it was a joke

I am but a mere mortal on PF. I have no power over you.

Dembadon, I suppose then you haven't yet met the philosophy major who claims to understand quantum mechanics better than you do.

I do have a friend in his senior year as a philosophy major and conversations with him are, at times, a bit frustrating. His default answer when cornered is, "You're just not perceiving it correctly." Grrr.

However, I've never belittled him because of his choice of major. He is an intelligent person regardless.

 

[turbo]

From my Sophomore year on, I carried a double major in English Literature and Philosophy. Because I did not start in Liberal Arts, I had to play catch-up and carry very large course-loads to get on track. It was a lot of work, but I didn't mind because it was a lot more fun than engineering (my first choice). I really enjoyed both qualitative and quantitative analyses (the lab thrusts of engineering chemistry courses), but much of the rest of the curriculum left me cold. I'm not going to turn up my nose at "easy" majors. My double major was "easy" because I loved what I was doing.

 

[rewebster]

My double major was "easy" because I loved what I was doing.

that's the most important thing too, I believe. If someone likes what they're studying, they're going to spend a lot of time even before they may take a course, reading, doing, etc.

A lot of it is how much of the 'course' you know before you even take the course.

The high schools I went to didn't have any college type credit courses. I didn't even know they existed until I got to college (too late).

I found out about about 'tests' to bypass the course, signed up for the botany one though, and with two weeks or so of studying, passed. I think they were called comp tests, if I remember right.

One regret is I wish I would have bought the Calc book for that course (calc), I probably would have gotten a better grade--they didn't offer calc in the high schools I went to.

 

[turbo]

that's the most important thing too, I believe. If someone likes what they're studying, they're going to spend a lot of time even before they may take a course, reading, doing, etc.

I had already been studying foreign religions since high-school. I had a large library of literature that was left in the house that my parents bought when I was 10. I had Dickens, Twain, Hawthorn, Verne, Melville, etc, etc, etc. None of that was really supported in HS, but in college I found a home.

 

[Smurf]

To everyone hating on the liberal arts majors: I wonder if you've ever taken an upper-level course in any of these disciplines. The first year courses are largely introductory, and if you're already good at memorization I can't see them being too difficult for anyone (although this can vary). It's not until you get to 3rd and 4th year courses when professors start expecting you to write 20 page papers which can take weeks to months to complete.
Furthermore, I'd like to re-iterate pengwino's point that difficulty varies depending on department. If you take a political science course at a university with a crappy political science department, it could be very low quality. However, if you got to my University, which is very well known for its political science department, it is often much more difficult.
Also, courses vary in difficulty. There are ridiculously easy courses, and then there are the ones with the good professors who kick your ***.
Actually, another point. I haven't taken any sciences apart from two math electives, so I don't know what its like there. But I gather from talking to some other students that getting about 50% on an exam can be considered quite good. I also think using the Bell curve is more common than in the social sciences. So consider that in order to get into a decent M.A. program in political science in Canada, you usually have to have all A's, at least in your last 30 credits or so. Maybe that is the same in sciences, maybe not.

Now some comments:

Same here. I'm a competent writer, but I detest writing papers. I'm also a perfectionist, so I average and hour per page.

Holy ****, you can do a page every hour?

But in most cases you're right, when you tell people you're doing some kind of engineering, their response are usually "Wow..."

Heh, when I meet an engineering student, my response is usually "Great... another pretentious jackass who thinks he's smarter than everyone else." (Not that that's universal, but it certainly seems that way at my university)

Dembadon, I suppose then you haven't yet met the philosophy major who claims to understand quantum mechanics better than you do.

Yeah but they have to do that. EVERYONE makes fun of philosophy. They have no allies.

I can easily say that reading a book cover to cover is a complete cakewalk compared to some of the hellish weeks I have seen.

You know we don't actually get marked for just reading, right? We have to actually do something with it afterwards. I know reading a science textbook cover to cover would be a complete cakewalk compared to some of the hellish weeks I've seen.

 

[DanP]

Then you have the pre-meds who just want A's and don't care about being educated, they just want their 4.0 so they can get into some med school and rack up $200k worth of debt so they can become a rich doctor some day. I'm going to be treated/have my kids taught by these people? :( SAD FACE.

Oh well, back to feeling superior to the "others".

First of all, you shouldn't be annoyed with easy majors. Yes some are easier then others. Who cares ? You took a decision to learn a harder curriculum. Stick to it, and do what it takes. If you don't want that anymore, switch to an easy major and enjoy your life. Make your decisions, and stop being annoyed by chimeras.

And about pre-meds. Get off their case. Many of those ppl will go to med-school, which is one of the *hardest* schools ever. When their are finished, they'll go on for a very though residency period. In my country is 5 years. Probably it's duration is similar in US.
Don't make statements about future MDs that they don't want to be educated. Many will end up learning more than in any other profession I know. And besides, have you ever took a physiology class , or an anatomy class ? The sheer volume alone of what you learn only in those classes can be overwhelming for many.

 

[story645]

Holy ****, you can do a page every hour?

? 1 page/hour feels really slow to me.

In my country is 5 years. Probably it's duration is similar in US

Even longer in harder/more specialized fields. Neurosurgery is about 12 years. There's also the whole saving lives aspect, which most other professions just don't have.

. So consider that in order to get into a decent M.A. program in political science in Canada, you usually have to have all A's, at least in your last 30 credits or so. Maybe that is the same in sciences, maybe not.

Sciences are just as bad in their own way, and just as/more competitive because there are less phD spots and most phD spots are paid for by the school.

 

[tt2348]

Personally, I just don't think other majors are as mentally exhausting.
This is how I explain it to my friends.

If you're writing a paper all night long, some of it may be bad, but it's not like you need to rewrite the whole thing, just fix some things.

Math and physics? I can pull an all nighter working on a problem, and the next morning realize I made a mistake and be no closer to solving it than I was the day before. It's like trying to drive somewhere that's 3 hours out of the way, and accidentally driving 2 hours in the wrong direction. The intellectual rigor required for these fields is very intense

 

[story645]

If you're writing a paper all night long, some of it may be bad, but it's not like you need to rewrite the whole thing, just fix some things.

I get students who missed the question and therefore have to rewrite the whole thing all the time. It's a matter of skill and talent, just like the sciences/maths.

 

[tt2348]

Lol we aren't allowed to rewrite.
My point is , math follows Boolean logic. It's either right or wrong

 

[story645]

Lol we aren't allowed to rewrite.

It's the writing center. They usually come in before the assignment is due.

 

[Moonbear]

Easy as in easy. There's some universities where being a history major is a joke, some where it's hard as hell. Typically one thinks of biology as a hard science but at my university it's fairly simple from what I hear. The math department is a JOKE. The department makes the major easy or hard in my opinion.

I think that is the crux of the issue more so than a particular subject or major being hard or easy. Universities each have their strengths and weaknesses in terms of which departments have their best faculty, and which just make courses harder than they need to be, or easier than they should be.

This doesn't really become apparent until you've attended or worked at multiple universities.

And, it does come around if someone attends a university that gives them weak preparation in their major compared to other universities. Employers know where they get their best employees from, graduate programs know which schools are most competitive. This is of course why we recommend, over and over again, when students are selecting universities that they look at the rigor of the specific major or majors they are considering rather than the name brand of the school as a whole.

One example of a major that I know varies greatly from university to university is psychology. There are schools where a psych major is still predominantly going to learn things like Freudian and Jungian theories, and it really isn't a very useful major. Then, there are universities where the major is strongly grounded in biology, neuroscience, even computer science, and is a very rigorous program. And, then there are places where you can choose from these different tracks, and the rigor/difficulty/usefulness of the major is highly dependent on the choices the student makes in which of the elective courses for the major they take.

 

[Moonbear]

And about pre-meds. Get off their case. Many of those ppl will go to med-school, which is one of the *hardest* schools ever. When their are finished, they'll go on for a very though residency period. In my country is 5 years. Probably it's duration is similar in US.
Don't make statements about future MDs that they don't want to be educated. Many will end up learning more than in any other profession I know. And besides, have you ever took a physiology class , or an anatomy class ? The sheer volume alone of what you learn only in those classes can be overwhelming for many.

The pre-meds are preoccupied with grades because they know if they let that point slide that they might have deserved but didn't bother arguing for, that could be the subtle distinction between them and another student who did argue for it when it comes time for med school admission.

I think it's fairly sad, though, that too often people who have never taken any biology course other than introductory biology (usually the one that's not for biology majors, and they're taking it later than their freshman year to fill some core requirement) decide based on that one course that biology is an easy major. That would be like all of the rest of us who took the general physics course for science majors other than physics deciding physics is a cake-walk major based on how easy that one course was. Yes, a freshman level course for non-majors is going to be a relatively easy course. It doesn't mean the higher level courses taught to the majors are so easy.

And, actually, a lot of the pre-meds DON'T make it to med school. Most realize early enough that they aren't cut out for it. The rest find out later when they apply. And then some that make it to med school don't finish med school...we lose several in the first year every year. And, they learn quickly that their old habits of begging for points don't get them very far anymore. Once in a while they can make a good argument for a particular answer they gave, but it's rare. Their patients won't care if they can rationalize their wrong answers, if they make the wrong choice, wrong diagnosis or give the wrong treatment, the patient is still going to sue them and win.

 

[DanP]

The pre-meds are preoccupied with grades because they know if they let that point slide that they might have deserved but didn't bother arguing for, that could be the subtle distinction between them and another student who did argue for it when it comes time for med school admission.

I think it's safe to say that it's good to be preoccupied with your grades, and nobody should hold a grudge against you if you are. Anytime something makes a difference in later competition / career should be treated with attention. Regardless of this, I think it's very unfair to treat pre-med like they where in this thread , and make statements "those are the future doctors who will treat me / my child / whoever?"

In my country the med school stands on it's own, it's not in the pre-med / med format. After you are admitted you do 6 years 3 pre-clinical, 3 clinical. And of course, there are serious differences in value between different university. But in the end, this reflects later on what jobs you are able to get. I know MDs who didn't made a good careers as a doctor and later switched to marketing careers for pharmaceutical companies. They found something to do even if they couldn't survive practice.

 

[~christina~]

I was taking a literary studies class and during a break, one of them complained that they had a 3.9 GPA and wanted a 4.0. All I can say is that their major wasn't in the sciences.

 

[Monique]

And what do you want to say with that?

 

[Pythagorean]

Performing Arts

Performing arts are tough. I had a music minor when I was first pursuing a BA in Physics. I eventually dropped the music minor and went for a BS in Physics.

But anyway, it was hard. The theoretical part of music involves math/logic-like thinking (there are many kinds of patterns, rules, corollaries, etc). And then there's ear training, which takes a lot of practice, staying up late, to be able to sing notes as you see them on sheet music.

Sheet music reading itself is difficult to do on demand. I can read sheet music, but not fast enough to play it. But I've always been more of an improv musician rather than a music reader.

Anyway, I dropped the music minor, not because it was too easy (it was, in fact, very difficult) but because I wanted to be able to enjoy making music, not feel obligated to do it for an assignment.

Literary Studies, History, Politics

Also tough. I can't bring myself to wade through pages of text. This is what is easier about mathematics and physics to me. You don't have near as much text to read. Most of the ideas are contained in an equation or diagram or algorithm with a couple words for definition and operation. It's much easier to comprehend this technical aspect of learning physics and mathematics than it is to pull together abstract concepts from full pages of text.

 

[Gokul43201]

Some days I really do hope karma exists and all my hard work will result in at least a decent paying job that I enjoy.

Karma doesn't quite work that way in Physics. Beyond a point, there is almost a negative correlation between academic qualification and pay. Consider the case of someone graduating with a PhD in Physics (in the US). The most qualified (or lucky) land a postdoc at a top university program, paying somewhere in the range of $30K-$40K. Next down the prestige ladder is a postdoc at a National Lab or less fancy school, paying near $50K-$60K. If you're not good enough or fortunate enough for either of these, you may find an industry position for $60K-$70K. Or, if none of these work out, you could find yourself a job as a quant on Wall Street with a nearly 6-figure starting paycheck.

PS: This post is a bit of an overgeneralization. I know plenty of people who would (and did) take an industry position any day over an academic one, for instance.

 

[rootX]

Karma doesn't quite work that way in Physics. Beyond a point, there is almost a negative correlation between academic qualification and pay. Consider the case of someone graduating with a PhD in Physics (in the US). The most qualified (or lucky) land a postdoc at a top university program, paying somewhere in the range of $30K-$40K. Next down the prestige ladder is a postdoc at a National Lab or less fancy school, paying near $50K-$60K. If you're not good enough or fortunate enough for either of these, you may find an industry position for $60K-$70K. Or, if none of these work out, you could find yourself a job as a quant on Wall Street with a nearly 6-figure starting paycheck.

PS: This post is a bit of an overgeneralization. I know plenty of people who would (and did) take an industry position any day over an academic one, for instance.

If you want (6 figures) money (badly), why would you consider PhD in Physics?

 

[lisab]

If you want (6 figures) money (badly), why would you consider PhD in Physics?

You can easily make 6 figures in with a degree in physics...if you count the cents columns.

 

[Gokul43201]

You can easily make 6 figures in with a degree in physics...if you count the cents columns.

Physicist A (scribbling out what he earns, in dollars and cents): See, I make a 6-figure salary!

Physicist B: Okay, but where's the point in that?

 

[~christina~]

And what do you want to say with that?

It's just an example of how some individuals are not appreciative of how it's easy for them to get a perfect GPA. (sort of frustrating to listen to) It's also probably worth mentioning that this was a senior that was speaking.

disclaimer: I'm most likely biased in this category

 

[story645]

It's also probably worth mentioning that this was a senior that was speaking

I think it depends on the person though, 'cause I've heard plenty of crazy honors kid in science/math engineering also whine about having only a 3.9.

Also grading is just plain wonky. I had a professor who never gave anything above a B+ (she believed in writing her tests so that the grades would be normally distributed and graded her tests so that they'd be normally distributed) and this was a psychology course, and I've had two engineering professors who seemed to grade on how smart they thought a student was. (One, a guy who gave almost everybody As, was finally not allowed to teach a class anymore, rumor has it 'cause the next professor in the sequence complained about getting his students. )

 

[Monique]

It's just an example of how some individuals are not appreciative of how it's easy for them to get a perfect GPA. (sort of frustrating to listen to) It's also probably worth mentioning that this was a senior that was speaking.

disclaimer: I'm most likely biased in this category

Yes, I think you are biased. There are also people in the sciences that would be disappointed with a GPA of 3.9 (like story645 also mentioned). If science is about a clear distinction in right or wrong, it should be easy to get perfect grades: you just study and answer the questions correctly.

In the end it is not how 'easy' a major it, it is about people being passionate about what they're learning and putting it to good use.