News Kerry To Push For Bush Impeachment

[Pengwuino]

Art... well ill help you out here since your not from the US. California is the closest thing to a socialist country as you can get. Capitalism is almost all but discouraged around here. We have an EXTENSIVE welfare system in California that these people out on the street corners with their fold-up signs can take full advantage of (I know, both my parents have around 40 years of experience in social services, ie welfare). We also have an extensive health care network for the poor. Although I can't account for a few of the eastern states, I would seem California to have the largest "safety net" in the country as you put it. Your colleagues wife was, although it sounds absolutely crazy, completely right in her discription of how it is here.

We have a very large illegal immigrant population as well and its actually a big problem. However, these peopel take up a lot of jobs... and many of them receive government payments (as insane as that sounds as htey are here illegally). There is absolutely no reason in my mind as to why the poor people that you describe could not do what illegal immigrants do and go out and get a freaken job. The only thing stopping them is that hell, stand on a corner for one day and be passed up by probably a good 10,000 cars and your bound to make more money that day then going out and picking grapes or strawberries.

So as assanine as it may seem, their actions are one of the huge ironies of being a free america.

 

[Informal Logic]

And only after 1991? I consider that to be a vast oversimplification of the problem. Sure, its easy for him to make the case that our presence is the important factor if he limits the scope of his investigation to terrorism related to our presence.

We have a significant number of troops in dozens of countries and the only terrorism we see is perpetrated by people who call themselves Muslims. Ie, when was the last time a German, South Korean, or Japanese strapped a bomb to his chest and blew up a restaraunt in one of those countries? That's it? Isn't that a self-evident and therefore useless point? Of course terrorism increases when we go near terrorists. Bee stings increase near bees nests too. But then comes logical leap from the corellation (bee stings happen near bees nests) to causation: going near bees nests creates bees. Then, of course, the fallacious course of action that leads to: stay away from bees nests and there won't be any bees. Have people forgotten the 1980s, when Iran was on its terrorism binge? I went on a trip to Europe in ~'84 and in most countries they had armed military guards with machine guns outside the American Express office for fear of Iranian terrorism.

He uses the Tamil Tigers as an example of a Marxist terrorist group - well fine, they are terrorists because of Marxism. That doesn't mean that Islamic terrorists aren't terrorists because of the way they view Islam - especially when the politics and religion are so inter-mixed in a religious theocracy.

If you don't believe that Bin Laden is motivated first and foremost by religion, ask him. He'll tell you (he has on many, many occasions).

The guy discounts Iran, but again, Iran was for quite a while the biggest state sponsor of terrorism. The fact that they have calmed down probably directly goes against his thesis: our presence near Iran has them afraid enough to not want to piss us off (see: Libya, Syria).

Why do you keep arguing various points that are not even made? The simple statement has been made that the war in Iraq was not a war on terror, and that the war in Iraq did not make America safer. If you want to refute that, knock yourself out.

 

[Huckleberry]

I was at the Naval Academy under Clinton and in the Navy under Bush, though I left before the Iraq war. People at the Academy were very much against Clinton. Motivation was high after 9/11, but I don't remember specific feelings toward Bush.

I was only speaking of the general sentiment that I was familiar with among the enlisted. Officers and enlisted personell have very different responsibilities and viewpoints.

 

[Informal Logic]

Really? The last time i saw a democrat try to source something or use logic in regards to a conversation or didnt act hypocritical... well.. hmm.. who was president at that time...

I mean come on, your the ideology that almost stumbled over your own two feet when Dan Rather gave some falsified BS and you guys took it as the holy grail. Then of course, throw in a newsweek article and your pretty much in lala land believing anything anti-Bush that happens to come out of any hole in the ground.

If anyone watched MSNBC with Brian Williams and his recent interview with Clinton, it showed Clinton's great speaking ability, intelligence, good reasoning and logic, as well as reviewed how he was acquitted, etc. It makes one realize what an idiot Bush is in comparison, and only made me feel more respect for Clinton. Here is a link, though unfortunately it is only a portion of the entire interview.

http://transcripts.msnbc.com/id/8064203/

You can keep trying to justify Bush's policies, but in the end it is his lies/incompetency that are being exposed--not the other way around.

 

[Art]

Art... well ill help you out here since your not from the US. California is the closest thing to a socialist country as you can get. Capitalism is almost all but discouraged around here. We have an EXTENSIVE welfare system in California that these people out on the street corners with their fold-up signs can take full advantage of (I know, both my parents have around 40 years of experience in social services, ie welfare). We also have an extensive health care network for the poor. Although I can't account for a few of the eastern states, I would seem California to have the largest "safety net" in the country as you put it. Your colleagues wife was, although it sounds absolutely crazy, completely right in her discription of how it is here.

I'm not an expert but I thought under the CalWorks (welfare to work) system people had to work to be eligible for benefit. The minimum hours set by federal legislation is between 20 and 25hrs per week (depending on an individual's circumstances) whereas nearly all the counties in California have introduced a minimum of 32 hours. BTW, WTW sounds fine to me but I don't see why you say California is the most socialist state in America on the basis of this?

We have a very large illegal immigrant population as well and its actually a big problem.

Why is it a problem? Aren't they the ones who staff the minimum wage jobs that real Americans wouldn't do?

However, these peopel take up a lot of jobs... and many of them receive government payments (as insane as that sounds as htey are here illegally).

Are you sure? If the government finds they are in the USA illegally do they not deport them?

There is absolutely no reason in my mind as to why the poor people that you describe could not do what illegal immigrants do and go out and get a freaken job.

Is it possible they have tried but can't. Sometimes it can be difficult to find a job when one is 'of no fixed abode'.

The only thing stopping them is that hell, stand on a corner for one day and be passed up by probably a good 10,000 cars and your bound to make more money that day then going out and picking grapes or strawberries.

How does standing there make money? I did not see any of these poor unfortunates either asking for or receiving alms from passersby.

So as assanine as it may seem, their actions are one of the huge ironies of being a free america.

Well that makes at least two of you in California who think that is a good thing

 

[vanesch]

Agreed about comparison to a terrorist (Osama) but not in regard to the unnecessary and illegal invasion of Iraq.

You misunderstood me if you thought for a second I wanted to justify that! The invasion was motivated by lies and was as such unnecessary and "illegal". However, if Bush's idea of a rapid blitz krieg, overhauling Saddam's statue, and having Iraqi children waving American flags to the good liberators handing out sweets from their tanks turned out to be true (as seen in documentaries of the US liberating Europe in 1945), well, one should have to have admitted that the invasion was unjustified and illegal, but that in the end, something "good" happened (no matter what were the initial motivations, lies etc). But if you know only a little bit Arab mentality, then you know that Arab children will never wave American flags in these cases. So this was doomed to fail from the outset. I simply don't understand how Dubya could have been so mis informed. This could maybe have worked in an Asiatic, European or African country. But not with Arabs: they have a too deeply nested hatred wrt the west in general, and Israel (and hence the US) in particular.

The invasion of Iraq is not a war on terror, and the war in Iraq does not make America safer. Saying otherwise is propaganda.

That's true, and it is strange that, at this point, one can still claim the opposite. In the beginning, one could eventually have thought that they knew what they were doing and that the initial propaganda and lies were somehow to justify an intelligent operation that would turn out to be positive in the end, even if justified with all the wrong arguments. But when one looks at the situation NOW, I think it is clear that this wasn't the case.

 

[Pengwuino]

I'm not an expert but I thought under the CalWorks (welfare to work) system people had to work to be eligible for benefit. The minimum hours set by federal legislation is between 20 and 25hrs per week (depending on an individual's circumstances) whereas nearly all the counties in California have introduced a minimum of 32 hours. BTW, WTW sounds fine to me but I don't see why you say California is the most socialist state in America on the basis of this?

http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/cdssweb/california_169.htm

Calworks is not the California welfare system. Its kinda like Workforce connection... but well.. no its not actually. Workforce "attempts to find suitable applicants for suitable employers", ha! My fathers currently a supervisor at Workforce and he thinks its a total joke. But anyhow, where was I... no calworks is not the social welfare system in California. Pretty much in California, you walk into a welfare office and they give you a check regardless of actual employment (or citizenship amazingly...). I'll go find out what's hte proper name for the agencies responsible for this.

Why is it a problem? Aren't they the ones who staff the minimum wage jobs that real Americans wouldn't

Its a problem because we have no idea whose walking into our borders and since we're finding known terrorists walking across in the last few years... it kinda is a national security issue. Along with the fact that do take a lot from our system without paying much into it and filling emergency rooms everytime they get a scratch.

IRT: Aren't they the ones who staff the minimum wage jobs that real Americans wouldn't

For one, no, they arent getting paid minimum wage, they are unfortunately getting paid below that. Americans also do very much enjoy taking minimum wage jobs as there's probably thousands of them available all over for the taking. What your htinking of is the farm and agriculture jobs. There is unfortunately a huge myth surrounding the idea that Americans will not take these jobs. Theres no evidence or logic to say that's at all true. I mean americans are garbage men... sewer treatement workers... construction crews... etc etc. Its just a silly myth that a bunch of peopel around here are trying to get people to believe in. In fact, my godfather is a foremen at a ranch so he pretty much lives out in the Ag field and he says maybe around 25% are illegal aliens, that's all.

Are you sure? If the government finds they are in the USA illegally do they not deport them?

haha you'd think so right! You'd think that if someone is breaking the law, they would face some sort of penalty but this is the great state of California which doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground. In the last few years, there have been multiple attempts in the California legislature and with public referendums to give drivers licenses to Illegal Aliens. No, i am not exagerating, i am not mixing words, it says on the stupid voting ballot "Initiative to give illegal immigrants drivers licenses". I have absolutely no idea what is going on in this state but we are almost to a point where we are not even allowed to deport people. I believe 25% of the prison population is illegal immigrants... none are deported... they just continue to take up around $40,000/year/convinct of tax payer money. Gotta love this insane state.

Is it possible they have tried but can't. Sometimes it can be difficult to find a job when one is 'of no fixed abode'.

No, this is not the case for most people. Although maybe you and I think of a job as going and gettng an application, filling it out, submitting it, going in for an interview, etc etc; there are still many many jobs where you can just walk on and do work and get paid such as, hey, Agriculture! It'd be below minimum wage but hey, its more then nothing. Add to that the numberous shelters and soup kitchens... at some point, you should have enough money for some thing. Unfortunately however, too many of these people are alcoholics so they end up buying alcohol with their money.

How does standing there make money? I did not see any of these poor unfortunates either asking for or receiving alms from passersby.

When you see someone with a "will work for food" or whatever sign... think about it, out of the thousands of people who drive by each day... do you think any of them really have a job for them? Its obvious they need money so people inevitably just give them a buck or 2 because I don't think anyone will come up to oen and think "crap, i don't have a job for him... i guess I am of no use".

Well that makes at least two of you in California who think that is a good thing

I didnt suspect there were many people who don't think economic freedom is a good thing. People come from rags to riches, homeless to millionaire, etc etc in this country. There is nothing in the definition of living in America that prevents someone from coming out of the dumpsters. We have a member of this forum who use to be homeless that could testify that homeless people arent exactly the unfortunate forgotten hard-working martyrs so many people put them up to be.

 

[2CentsWorth]

Here are some of the blogs that are talking about this memo:

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/
http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/
http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/6/3/131436/1179
http://www.bigbrassblog.com/bba.html
http://lastleftb4hooterville.blogspot.com/2005/06/downing-street-its-not-just-for.html

The second site has a link to Congressman John Conyers who "is calling on American citizens to sign on to a letter to the President that demands a response to questions originally posed by Conyers and 88 other members of Congress in a similar letter dated May 5, 2005." If you go to his link it redirects you because they are "receiving ten emails a minute." Interesting, and it remains interesting that the media still isn't reporting on this very much.

 

[SOS2008]

You misunderstood me if you thought for a second I wanted to justify that! The invasion was motivated by lies and was as such unnecessary and "illegal". However, if Bush's idea of a rapid blitz krieg, overhauling Saddam's statue, and having Iraqi children waving American flags to the good liberators handing out sweets from their tanks turned out to be true (as seen in documentaries of the US liberating Europe in 1945), well, one should have to have admitted that the invasion was unjustified and illegal, but that in the end, something "good" happened (no matter what were the initial motivations, lies etc). But if you know only a little bit Arab mentality, then you know that Arab children will never wave American flags in these cases. So this was doomed to fail from the outset. I simply don't understand how Dubya could have been so mis informed. This could maybe have worked in an Asiatic, European or African country. But not with Arabs: they have a too deeply nested hatred wrt the west in general, and Israel (and hence the US) in particular.



That's true, and it is strange that, at this point, one can still claim the opposite. In the beginning, one could eventually have thought that they knew what they were doing and that the initial propaganda and lies were somehow to justify an intelligent operation that would turn out to be positive in the end, even if justified with all the wrong arguments. But when one looks at the situation NOW, I think it is clear that this wasn't the case.

Thanks for the clarification, and well said.

 

[SOS2008]

Ironically, your entire statement is simple left-wing propaganda. The fact that none of us are omnipotent or at the least, are directors of any major national defense agency, makes us rather ill informed to make such broad statements. Of course, however, some peopel seem to feel they know definitive facts about the entire world based on a CNN article or something Newsweek inked up on a piece of paper.

At least I follow the news, and provide sources/links in what I post--you should try it some time.

 

[faust9]

At least I follow the news, and provide sources/links in what I post--you should try it some time.

Ha, Ha... You're asking a lot with this.

Personally, I knew the good old US of A was in dire straits when a good man(relatively at least in political terms) like John MacCain could be bumped off the presidential ballot by a push-poll. "Would you vote for Senator MacCain if you knew he had a colored child?"

The US has been TV dinnered and Jiffy-popped to the point of not caring about real news or real events. They only car about what Fox or CNN tell them to regurgitate. Nothing like seeing the echo chamber in action huh?

 

[Pengwuino]

At least I follow the news, and provide sources/links in what I post--you should try it some time.

I think me and a lot of other people must have selective memory because I don't think many of us could recall you ever doing that

i don't know why i put the cry face... just nice change of faces

 

[SOS2008]

The Downing Street Memo update according to MSNBC "Countdown"

SECAUCUS -- Last Wednesday, Senator John Kerry told the editorial board of the newspaper in New Bedford, Massachusetts, the "Standard-Times," that he was amazed at the lack of American media coverage of the so-called "Downing Street Memo" -- notes of a July, 2002 British cabinet meeting that suggested the U.S. was making all the evidence fit a pre-planned invasion of Iraq.
--------------------
By Saturday, those quotes, and the original New Bedford story, had been transmuted ...Blogs and websites pulsated with the news: Kerry was going to call for the impeachment of President Bush!
--------------------
The Senator's office told "Countdown" last night that he [Kerry] never said anything about impeachment and asked our reporter where he'd read that line. The answer was: the websites of NewsMax and Al-Jazeera.

However, NOW the story is in the mainstream media, especially following responses by Blair and Bush, who tried to brush the topic aside. In the meantime -

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8135134/
Washington Post-ABC News Poll, June 7, 2005
"52 percent said war in Iraq has not contributed to the long-term security of the United States"