Laplace Transform Finding Open-Circuit Voltage

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around modeling the open-circuit voltage of a battery during charging and discharging using the Laplace transform. Participants explore the appropriateness of the Laplace transform for this application, considering both transient responses and charge/discharge curves.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes modeling the open-circuit voltage as a simple voltage source when applying the Laplace transform.
  • Another participant suggests that the Laplace transform of a constant is c/s and emphasizes that the model's purpose influences the approach taken.
  • A different viewpoint argues that since there is no current in an open circuit, the impedance may not matter, and the transform could simply reflect the source voltage.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the suitability of the Laplace transform for modeling the charge and discharge curve, suggesting that it may be unwieldy and that a time domain model might be more appropriate.
  • It is mentioned that if the battery's behavior is limited to a certain range, it might be linear enough to model as a capacitor with an initial condition, which could work with Laplace.
  • Participants share links to additional resources on battery charge curves and time-based circuit models for further exploration.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach for modeling the open-circuit voltage with the Laplace transform, with multiple competing views and uncertainties expressed regarding the appropriateness of the method for different scenarios.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about linearity and the range of operation for the battery, as well as the dependency on the specific questions being asked of the model.

willDavidson
Messages
50
Reaction score
6
TL;DR
I am trying to determine how to represent open circuit voltage during laplace transform
I am interested in modeling a battery charging/discharging. I am starting off with a simple model using a voltage source in series with a parallel RC branch which is in series with a resistor. I will be measuring the open circuit voltage between the last series resistor and the bottom of the source. In the past when I've done Laplace, it was never looking at open circuit voltage but voltage across an element. For this, I'm wondering if I represent the open circuit voltage as a simple voltage source when doing the Laplace transform or is it something more?
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
I should've posted a sample of the circuit schematic. I've attached it here.
 

Attachments

  • battery model.png
    battery model.png
    4.3 KB · Views: 218
The Laplace transform of a constant, say c, is c/s.

But I think really the answer to your question depends on what the model is for. i.e. If you're looking to model the transient response of a system upon battery insert (or removal) I would just use the standard technique of modeling the source as a step function and put your impedance model in series with that source.
 
I don't think the impedance would matter since it's just an open circuit? There's no current. If I got that question on an exam I would likely say the transform is whatever the source is.
 
willDavidson said:
I am interested in modeling a battery charging/discharging. ... For this, I'm wondering if I represent the open circuit voltage as a simple voltage source when doing the Laplace transform or is it something more?

I should've read your question more closely. Because of your description of the independent voltage source and the resistor, etc. I assumed your were looking for the small signal response of the battery so you could asses the stability (or general response) of a circuit while charging, or something, at a given operating point.

If you're just looking to model the charge and discharge curve (i.e. charge stored vs open circuit voltage) then I am not sure Laplace is the right mathematical tool for that. I'm confident one could jury rig a model to make it fit but I think it would be pretty unwieldy. I could be wrong though.

If it was limited to a certain range then it could be linear enough where perhaps you could just model it as a capacitor with an initial condition, and that would work well with Laplace. But over the entire operating range batteries are fairly non-linear which makes me think you're probably going to be best off with a time domain model. It still boils down to what question you're asking of the model and what accuracy you require, as always.

See this link for more information on battery charge curves.

https://www.richtek.com/Design Support/Technical Document/AN024
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
Replies
3
Views
1K
Replies
93
Views
8K
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 81 ·
3
Replies
81
Views
8K
Replies
38
Views
7K