Lazy American Students: Boston Globe Editorial

[gravenewworld]

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/e...y_american_students/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed1

 

[mgb_phys]

Currently being argued about over at news.ycombinator.

Conclusion seems to be selection effect, he is at a US MBA college .
The overseas students (they are actually from overseas - it's not an Asian students do better argument ) who got into and can pay to go to a prestigous US business school are not exactly average.

There is also a followup posting about lazy US teachers who are only interested in teaching to the test and keeping the children quiet.

 

[Astronuc]

From the cited article:

Too many American students simply lack the basics. In 2002, a National Geographic-Roper survey found that most 18- to 24-year-olds could not find Afghanistan, Iraq, or Japan on a map, ranking them behind counterparts in Sweden, Great Britain, Canada, Italy, Japan, France, and Germany. And in 2007 the American Institutes for Research reported that eighth graders in even our best-performing states - like Massachusetts - scored below peers in Singapore, South Korea, and Japan, while students in our worst-performing states - like Mississippi - were on par with eighth graders in Slovakia, Romania, and Russia.

So what's the problem? Bad schools and/or bad parenting?

 

[fluidistic]

From the cited article:
So what's the problem? Bad schools and/or bad parenting?

Mostly bad school I'd say, among with a big lack of curiosity from the concerned students. The job of the teachers is to teach some basic geography. Maybe they did it badly (without any emphasis) or maybe they just didn't. I'm sure some parents don't even know basic geography and thus can't teach it to their child. That's why they should be glad to send their kids to school. In this case the problem is due to school that didn't do its job. Parents cannot teach everything.

 

[Hepth]

There are no "concerned students" at 8th grade and below. They have (we had) no idea at that age how we compared to other students internationally, and I think that could help a little. When I found out that other high schools had offered more AP courses (like Calc BC instead of AB), I was upset. Why should I be hindered because the schools I went to decided certain things weren't important? If more US students knew they were behind in learning internationally I think there would actually be some more outspoken students.

This isn't the students' fault, its the schools. I think american schools are afraid to push students too hard (in quantity of material) for fear of dropping test scores.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Too many American students simply lack the basics. In 2002, a National Geographic-Roper survey found that most 18- to 24-year-olds could not find Afghanistan, Iraq, or Japan on a map

I could see not knowing exactly which one Iraq and Afghanistan is, but Japan is easy.
I think everyone should be able to find every country in the world on a map. That should be basic geography.
It's rare to find adults who have even HEARD of some countries, much less know where they're located.

This isn't the students' fault, its the schools. I think american schools are afraid to push students too hard (in quantity of material) for fear of dropping test scores.

In Asia, the schools push hard and so do the parents. Here, if the schools pushed hard, kids would just drop out with no real repercussions.

 

[mgb_phys]

Too many American students simply lack the basics. In 2002, a National Geographic-Roper survey found that most 18- to 24-year-olds could not find Afghanistan, Iraq, or Japan on a map

That seems to me to be about the pointless thing to spend time teaching kids - second only to state capitals (do kids still have to learn those? )

- were on par with eighth graders in Slovakia, Romania, and Russia.

I don't see why Slovakians get to be so smug - this is their fault, half the countries you thought you knew disappear and they create a whole bunch of new ones.

I think everyone should be able to find every country in the world on a map. That should be basic geography.

Really? Pop-quiz how may countries are there ?

 

[rootX]

That seems to me to be about the pointless thing to spend time teaching kids - second only to state capitals (do kids still have to learn those? )

Medial school training?

I believe it only points out that Americans don’t pay much emphasis on cramming

 

[Borek]

This isn't the students' fault, its the schools. I think american schools are afraid to push students too hard (in quantity of material) for fear of dropping test scores.

It isn't just the schools, from what I hear it is more like effect of policy. No Child Left Behind means in practice lowering the level so that everyone is able to keep up, "building confidence" means in practice that students think they are perfect even if they don't know the difference between 2*3 and 2³, and so on. I have seen so many complaints and I have read so many horror stories about policymakers and school administration working against teachers that I find it surprising anyone in US knows how to read leaving school.

I am not going to point out to any particular discussion, but you have my word that if you will find archives of CHEMED-L these things are discussed there every few weeks.

 

[ideasrule]

Afghanistan, Iraq, and Japan? Well, I don't know exactly where Afghanistan or Iraq is either. One classmate (17 years old) couldn't find Europe, Africa, or the Atlantic Ocean when I asked her to look for the mid-Atlantic ridge, and she's an average student.

 

[BobG]

From the cited article:
So what's the problem? Bad schools and/or bad parenting?

The amplitude in variation between students has increased. The article focused on the high side of one distribution and the low side of the other.

High school sports participation rates had http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=36214 . So students aren't getting lazier and dropping out of activities. (Sports is just an easy indicator - there's a lot of sports so students involved in extra-curricular activities have a good chance of a sport being one of them).

On the other hand, obesity among school students is increasing, so those not involved in school activities don't seem to compensate by becoming involved in non-school activities. Students aren't able to find activities to become involved in on their own (such as playing some pick-up basketball games down at the school playground?)

In fact, when you look at how overly organized kids' lives have become (swim lessons, soccer practice, band practice, etc) and how rarely students have to organize something like a pick-up softball game or basketball game on their own, maybe "lazy" isn't quite the right word to describe modern American students. Maybe they've lost their initiative and their ability to figure out how to handle little life problems (like boredom) on their own. The answer to boredeom always comes from their parent/coach/teacher or from a TV or video game.

Being trained to always get good results at school isn't the end-all be-all either. Asian students are more likely to be disciplined for cheating than American students. That's not because they're more dishonest, either. Plagiarism doesn't have the same negative connotations in a society where repeating back information correctly is seen as more important than creative thought.

In other words, I'm not sure what you could gain from the article.

 

[BobG]

I don't see why Slovakians get to be so smug - this is their fault, half the countries you thought you knew disappear and they create a whole bunch of new ones.


Really? Pop-quiz how may countries are there ?

That's cold. The number keeps changing and who's count are you using, anyway - the UN? (It makes a difference since some countries don't recognize the existence of other countries).

Somewhere in the low 190's depending on the year and who's tally you're using as official.

 

[Chi Meson]

Mostly bad school I'd say, among with a big lack of curiosity from the concerned students. The job of the teachers is to teach some basic geography. Maybe they did it badly (without any emphasis) or maybe they just didn't. I'm sure some parents don't even know basic geography and thus can't teach it to their child. That's why they should be glad to send their kids to school. In this case the problem is due to school that didn't do its job. Parents cannot teach everything.

Oh for crying out loud. It's all so simple isn't it? "Parent's cannot teach them everything."

How about "Parents don't seem to be teaching anything."

Just have a globe and some maps and other interesting things for children to see other than the video/computer screen. Our 6 year old Simon has already learned all the continents, most of the countries, all the states (by shape, location, and neighbors) and their capitols. We are not pushing, or quizzing, we just limit our kids time on computer and videos, and leave BOOKS everywhere.

I am continuously amazed at the number of students in my "honors" physics class who have never heard of things such as an anvil or a short circuit, never noticed things such as the colors in a soap bubble or the shape of a single freakin' constellation. I have students who are seniors who don't know the difference between an oak and a maple.

George Will pointed out ten years ago, that by the time kids graduate from high school they have spent less than 9% of their time in school.

What's going on the other 91% of the time? (OK, 33% of the time they should be asleep).

 

[Chi Meson]

It isn't just the schools, from what I hear it is more like effect of policy. No Child Left Behind means in practice lowering the level so that everyone is able to keep up, "building confidence" means in practice that students think they are perfect even if they don't know the difference between 2*3 and 2³, and so on. I have seen so many complaints and I have read so many horror stories about policymakers and school administration working against teachers that I find it surprising anyone in US knows how to read leaving school.

The NCLB act demands that all students (100% of them, as in all of them, as in no exeptions) be "proficient" in reading comprehension, writing, and math skills by the year 2013.

Each state is allowed to define its own threshold for "proficient."

How high is the bar that everyone can jump over?

 

[Ronnin]

I believe too many Americans simply "phone it in" with regards to most of the things we do. Pride in one's work seems to be more the exception than the rule. There doesn't seem to be the same national pride in America's products anymore which I'm sure has a lot to do with the fact we simply don't manufacture the same goods we did 20-40 years ago. I myself am guilty of not putting my best effort into my work performance some days. That is not to say I don't do a good job, but If I can coast through something I tend to do that more. Our business has slowed and some days is just downright depressing. But, this is the time when I should be doing the exact opposite. As far as students are concerned, from my experience with my daughters, they considered school more or less a waste of time. It was something they had to do because if they didn't no socializing would occur. Why the schools allow cell phones and the like has never made any sense to me. My oldest (now 20) has since started attending nursing school after she now realizes that it's really hard to make a living slinging food at Joe's Crab Shack. Perhaps a good majority of todays kids thinks success is something bestowed rather than earned through hard work, a little luck, and most of all determination.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Really? Pop-quiz how may countries are there ?

Not sure, but if you said the name of a country, I could show you where it's located on a map. Although I'm not good enough to get it exactly if the border lines aren't shown, but I'll get in the vicinity.

 

[fluidistic]

Oh for crying out loud. It's all so simple isn't it? "Parent's cannot teach them everything."

How about "Parents don't seem to be teaching anything."

What I was trying to imply is that I'm more than sure that many parents don't even know basic geography (i.e. continents and their own country). They can't teach it to their child and they may believe that their children are learning what they "must" learn at school because they expect the school to do its job. Of course, if you haven't dropped elementary school (or high school), you could take time to check out if your children knows the basics. But many parents don't even know the basics. That was my point.

 

[Pengwuino]

I believe too many Americans simply "phone it in" with regards to most of the things we do. Pride in one's work seems to be more the exception than the rule. There doesn't seem to be the same national pride in America's products anymore which I'm sure has a lot to do with the fact we simply don't manufacture the same goods we did 20-40 years ago. I myself am guilty of not putting my best effort into my work performance some days. That is not to say I don't do a good job, but If I can coast through something I tend to do that more. Our business has slowed and some days is just downright depressing. But, this is the time when I should be doing the exact opposite. As far as students are concerned, from my experience with my daughters, they considered school more or less a waste of time.

This gets a thumbs up from me. It's amazing how it seems like no one I know really cares about what they're doing. What somewhat irritates me, though, is how everyone feels entitled to being served by OTHER people who they feel are suppose to care. Case in point, me being a TA and my fellow grad students. Time after time I've heard them complain about a professor who missed something or maybe didn't seem to take much time grading a homework assignment. Then, when I make a complaint about how my lab students do something silly or downright awful in the lab reports I am grading, the same people will say "just give them all A's".

It just amazes me how many people seemingly demand perfection from everyone, but when it comes to themselves, they expect just enough not to get fired (oh and of course, complain they aren't paid enough for the barely adequate job they do).

 

[Chi Meson]

What I was trying to imply is that I'm more than sure that many parents don't even know basic geography (i.e. continents and their own country). They can't teach it to their child and they may believe that their children are learning what they "must" learn at school because they expect the school to do its job. Of course, if you haven't dropped elementary school (or high school), you could take time to check out if your children knows the basics. But many parents don't even know the basics. That was my point.

OK, point taken. But parents nevertheless many parents have abdicated their share of the education of their own children. The general notion that schools are there to teach the children everything, including the multitude of little details one should pick up from basic "living and noticing things" gives these parents a false "it's out of my hands" attitude.

Even a parent who doesn't know basic geography can get an atlas or at least a map.

 

[Moonbear]

After reading the actual article in the OP, I don't think things have changed much really. There are always college students who are very bright but don't apply themselves, or those who are TRYING hard, but haven't really figured out time management and efficient study skills, so waste a lot of time and don't realize their full potential.

When I was in college, there were tons of opportunities to learn time management and study skills if you got there without them. There were workshops run by the dean of students' office, workshops run in the learning centers, workshops run in the dorms, etc. You did have to seek the help and attend the workshops, but they were there. I see very little of that nowadays.

I spend a lot of time with my students not just telling them they need to work on study skills or time management, but actually giving them constructive advice on HOW to do that, or referring them to the counseling center that also provides assistance with study skills if they've already tried all the things I can suggest.

I think it works. My students were scattered all over the place at the beginning of the term, doing too much, not studying enough, not studying right, waiting too long to start studying, etc. By the end of the term, their final exam scores were outstanding! When they finally figured out what they needed to do, they buckled down and did it.

Part of the problem is more with perceptions. Those of us who end up with Ph.D.s and teaching college students were generally hard-working, good students. That's how we got as far in our educations as we did. I think we were generally oblivious to all the others in our classes who were not getting as good of grades and of just what "average" work looked like even back then.

 

[Chi Meson]

Those of us who end up with Ph.D.s and teaching college students were generally hard-working, good students.

And we'uns wot got bachelorses an ent up teachins hi skoolers are wut, chopped livver?

 

[mgb_phys]

That's cold. The number keeps changing and who's count are you using, anyway - the UN?

It was in reply to someone claiming that knowing ALL the countries was basic geography.

I doubt I could find half of them on a map.
I'm probably better outside Africa and Central America and I wouldn't get many right in polynesia

 

[Pengwuino]

Part of the problem is more with perceptions. Those of us who end up with Ph.D.s and teaching college students were generally hard-working, good students. That's how we got as far in our educations as we did. I think we were generally oblivious to all the others in our classes who were not getting as good of grades and of just what "average" work looked like even back then.

I think that argument can only go so far though. I've been in classes where I could have aced just by showing up a couple days before each test and then taken teh tests. I have friend who take upper division core classes to their major where the instructor gives everyone the questions AND ANSWERS the day before a test. Of course, the failure rate is still high. I'm starting to wonder if there is even a such thing as a "difficult" communications/kineseology/insert-mick-major-here department in the country?

 

[fluidistic]

Even a parent who doesn't know basic geography can get an atlas or at least a map.

Absolutely. It seems many don't. A possible reason might be that they don't think it necessary. Or they do buy an atlas, but as I said, the student lacks of curiosity and don't open it.
That's why I said I believe that school is likely to have the most guilt, but not all of it.

Now why are students lacking of curiosity in a world where you can get almost any information at home (Internet), I've no idea.

 

[Proton Soup]

in the united states, college is the new high school. there simply are not many factory jobs for high school graduates anymore, and even if you do get lucky enough to land a decent assembly job at GM, it's effectively government-subsidized at the moment.

so everyone who can tries to go to college now. but save for some small flynn effect, we're not overly smart now. so you see a lot of folks that really shouldn't have been there a few decades ago, and you redesign curricula so that these people can pass and get their effective technical degrees, yet pay for four years of university education.

 

[mgb_phys]

Now why are students lacking of curiosity in a world where you can get almost any information at home (Internet), I've no idea.

Thats the big problem.

Kids have been taught since the age of 5 (thats when they start compulsory testing in UK schools) that the only reason for school is tests and the only thing that matters at school is test results.
Teachers are in a state where teaching anything that is not on the test or in a way that is not precisely as stated in the curriculum is almost a disciplinary offense.

We have reached the point where just opening a book in class is regarded as truancy.

 

[Borek]

It was in reply to someone claiming that knowing ALL the countries was basic geography.

I doubt I could find half of them on a map.
I'm probably better outside Africa and Central America and I wouldn't get many right in polynesia

I suppose even if you don't know precisely where the country lies you will do much better job...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp4iI59BfpQ

 

[leroyjenkens]

I think multiple choice tests aren't good for real learning for two reasons. If you haven't really learned the answer to the question, looking at some possible answers could "ring a bell" and you can get it right. Or you can guess, which has a good chance of being right.

 

[theCandyman]

If I thought history and geography were important, I would study them. And I'm expecting backlash for that statement, so go ahead.
I'm far from clueless on either subject though, although I only study the parts that interest me. In fact the book I'm reading now is mostly history (Music of the Primes by Marcus du Sautoy).

 

[story645]

I have students who are seniors who don't know the difference between an oak and a maple.

I learned the difference watching home decorating shows, and still don't see why it matters. Unless the students plan to go into a field where they actually learn the information (at which point they will), I don't see why that matters. It's a small fact, and facts can easily be looked up. I have the same feeling towards geography; kids should know where countries are relative to others because they should be caught up on current events (so they should basically know which countries constitute the middle east), but I don't think it's horrible if they can't figure out borders. Well except border conflicts-but that's cause they should know about the longstanding conflict over a region, and they'll learn about shared borders in the process.)

If I thought history and geography were important, I would study them.

I think on a general level they are, 'cause you should have an inkling of the world around you, but not a crazy detailed one. You should basically understand the history and politics of your own country 'cause so much of the status quo is directly traced from there, but yeah don't think it matters if you know the exact dates of every war (though relative years would be good) and name of every leader ever. There's also a very practical reason: the world is globalized, so global politics effect the economy and the scientific community, so you need to be able to follow current affairs well enough to understand what's happening in your sector.

Basically, I'm sort of in favor of the trend in US schools towards big picture/thematic learning, so long as the core information doesn't get lost.* (So no, I don't believe in math without learning the formulas, 'cause you need to know them to apply the concepts.) Most of my history teachers didn't require exact years so long as the period was correct, which is something the kid should get if he understands what he's learning anyway.
*Not a fan of whole language 'cause it's plagued by socio-economic issues that keep it from being a good universal approach.

As for the original post, I'm with mgb_phys that there's some crazy selection bias involved. I go to a school with a high immigrant population and haven't heard anything of the sort from professors. The only time I've really seen better grades from overseas students was when the guys already had a degree in it from his native country, and were just back in school 'cause they needed the ABET accreditation for licensing. (Happens a lot in engineering.) Another thing I've seen is that older students typically work harder than the fresh out of high school set, but that's got it's own factors.

It's also a liberal arts course and most American students have it in their heads that liberal arts courses are something that they can coast through because they speak English. Foreign students generally don't have that delusion 'cause they know their English isn't stellar (though often it's more mechanically proper than a native speakers), so they put in more work cleaning it up. And if her schools writing center works anything like mine, the students are getting a decent amount of help on their work content wise by asking for feedback.

 

[drankin]

I suppose even if you don't know precisely where the country lies you will do much better job...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp4iI59BfpQ

LOL! France!

 

[Sorry!]

I suppose even if you don't know precisely where the country lies you will do much better job...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp4iI59BfpQ

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA That's got to be the funniest clip on youtube I've seen my entire life. Wow that's a classic for sure. That one guy was trying to act so smart about attacking Iran from which direction and stuff LOL OMG.

At the end you think that the guy figured out he was wrong but then he's like 'wait a minute... I just realized something... [pause] North Korea is so much larger thanSouth Korea! I just realized that now!' HAHAHAHAHA OH MY GOD.

 

[Oerg]

I would say part of the problem is cultural, where excelling in academia is generally perceived negatively among your peers in school.

 

[Cyrus]

As they say:

Attitude determines altitude

 

[mgb_phys]

I would say part of the problem is cultural, where excelling in academia is generally perceived negatively among your peers in school.

Not just in school.
I'm listening to a celebrity "things I've never done" type program.
A presenter of trendy history programs is claiming that they have never been able to assemble IKEA furniture - somehow in a world where nobody would admit not being familiar with every political and artistic event for centuries it's perfectly acceptable and even 'cool' to claim not to understand the Allen key.