Length contraction and the direction of motion

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of length contraction in special relativity, particularly whether it can be treated as a vector and how it applies to objects moving at angles relative to a reference direction. Participants explore mathematical formulations and implications of length contraction in various contexts, including the behavior of spokes on a moving wheel and the effects of non-parallel boosts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether length contraction can be treated as a vector, specifically in the context of motion at an angle (10 degrees north of east) and propose using the cosine of the angle in Lorentz transformations.
  • One participant discusses the contraction of a moving sphere into an ellipsoid and provides a formula for calculating the length of spokes at various angles relative to the direction of motion.
  • Another participant raises a question about the meaning of \sum \Delta x'^2 and its relation to the squared length of a rod in a moving frame, seeking clarification on matrix representations of boosts.
  • It is noted that multiplying two non-parallel boosts results in a combination of a boost and a spatial rotation, referencing Thomas rotation.
  • Some participants express confusion over the general boost formula and its derivation, indicating a need for further clarification and understanding of the mathematical concepts involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying viewpoints on the treatment of length contraction as a vector and the implications of non-parallel boosts. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing views and ongoing exploration of the concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the mathematical derivations and the implications of their assumptions regarding boosts and length contraction. There are references to specific mathematical formulations that may depend on definitions and interpretations that are not universally agreed upon.

Darkmisc
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Can length contraction be treated as a vector?

E.g.

Suppose I am traveling 10 degrees north of east. Will my length contraction with respect to the east direction be cos 10 times the appropriate Lorentz transformation (with respect to the direction of motion)?


Thanks.
 
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Darkmisc said:
Can length contraction be treated as a vector?

E.g.

Suppose I am traveling 10 degrees north of east. Will my length contraction with respect to the east direction be cos 10 times the appropriate Lorentz transformation (with respect to the direction of motion)?


Thanks.

I just uploaded a file into my blog that answers your exact question.
 
This page mentions that a moving sphere is contracted into an ellipsoid (with the cross section being an ellipse), so the semiminor axis would be the length-contracted radius of the original sphere, and the semimajor axis would be the uncontracted radius. And this page gives the "radius" of an ellipse as a function of angle (relative to the semimajor axis) in polar coordinates:

[tex]r = \frac{ab}{\sqrt{(b cos(\theta))^2 + (a sin(\theta))^2}}[/tex]

So, if you imagine a wheel with spokes of equal radius L in its rest frame, then in a frame that sees the wheel moving, I think a spoke at angle [tex]\theta[/tex] relative to the uncontracted spoke that's perpendicular to the direction of motion (with the angle measured in the frame that sees the wheel in motion) should have a length given by this formula, with a = L and b = L / gamma. For example, a spoke oriented 10 degrees away from the direction of motion will be 80 degrees from the uncontracted spoke perpendicular to the direction of motion, and this trigonometry calculator gives sin(80) = 0.98481 and cos(80) = 0.17365, so its length should be (L^2/gamma)/sqrt[(0.17365*L/gamma)^2 + (0.98481*L)^2]. For example, at v=0.6c and 1/gamma=0.8, this would give a length of (0.8*L^2)/sqrt[0.0193*L^2 + 0.9699*L^2] = 0.804*L, just slightly longer than the length of the spoke exactly parallel to the direction of motion which is contracted to 0.8*L.

Alternatively, if you want to define [tex]\phi[/tex] as the angle relative to the direction of motion, the formula should be:

[tex]r = \frac{L^2 / \gamma}{\sqrt{((L / \gamma)*sin(\phi))^2 + (L*cos(\phi))^2}}[/tex]
 
Last edited:
starthaus said:
I just uploaded a file into my blog that answers your exact question.

What does [itex]\sum \Delta x'^2[/itex] mean? Is it the squared length of the rod in S', this being the sum of the squares of its components?

Why can’t we simply multiply matrices representing boosts in each of the component directions? Maybe I made a mistake, but when I tried this, the result didn’t look anything like your matrix for a general boost. It wasn’t even symmetric.

[tex]\Lambda_x\Lambda_y\Lambda_z=\begin{bmatrix}\gamma_x \gamma_y \gamma_z & -\beta_x \gamma_x & -\beta_y \gamma_x \gamma_y & 0\\ -\beta_x \gamma_y \gamma_z & \gamma_x & \beta_x \beta_y \gamma_x \gamma_y & 0\\ -\beta_y \gamma_y \gamma_z & 0 & \gamma_y & 0\\ -\beta_z \gamma_z & 0 & 0 & \gamma_z \end{bmatrix}[/tex]
 
JesseM said:
So, if you imagine a wheel with spokes of equal radius L in its rest frame, then in a frame that sees the wheel moving, I think a spoke at angle [tex]\theta[/tex] relative to the uncontracted spoke that's perpendicular to the direction of motion (with the angle measured in the frame that sees the wheel in motion) should have a length given by this formula, with a = L and b = L / gamma. For example, a spoke oriented 10 degrees away from the direction of motion will be 80 degrees from the uncontracted spoke perpendicular to the direction of motion, and this trigonometry calculator gives sin(80) = 0.98481 and cos(80) = 0.17365, so its length should be (L^2/gamma)/sqrt[(0.17365*L/gamma)^2 + (0.98481*L)^2]. For example, at v=0.6c and 1/gamma=0.8, this would give a length of (0.8*L^2)/sqrt[0.0193*L^2 + 0.9699*L^2] = 0.804*L, just slightly longer than the length of the spoke exactly parallel to the direction of motion which is contracted to 0.8*L.

Alternatively, if you want to define [tex]\phi[/tex] as the angle relative to the direction of motion, the formula should be:

[tex]r = \frac{L^2 / \gamma}{\sqrt{((L / \gamma)*sin(\phi))^2 + (L*cos(\phi))^2}}[/tex]

Here is an excellent animation illustrating your above post.
 
Rasalhague said:
What does [itex]\sum \Delta x'^2[/itex] mean? Is it the squared length of the rod in S', this being the sum of the squares of its components?

Yes


Why can’t we simply multiply matrices representing boosts in each of the component directions? Maybe I made a mistake, but when I tried this, the result didn’t look anything like your matrix for a general boost. It wasn’t even symmetric.

Here is how the transform is derived.
 
If you multiply two non-parallel boosts, surprisingly (perhaps) you don't get a boost, you get a boost multiplied by a spatial rotation, i.e. your x,y,z axes have rotated relative to how they started. See Thomas rotation.
 
Thanks for the tips! I remember now I looked at the general boost formula last year, and even copied it down, but couldn't really make sense of it. But now that I've read about dyadics, I can finally see what they're doing in the Wikipedidia derivation: that part where they put v vT into the space-space part of the matrix. I think I must have misread it as vT v before. Right, now to Thomas rotation... Robert Littlejohn's introduction, linked to from the Wiki page, looks promisingly detailed.
 

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