Levi-Civita & Jacobi: Meaning & Question

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter zn52
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Jacobi Levi-civita
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the interpretation of the Levi-Civita symbol and its relation to antisymmetrization in tensor calculus, particularly in the context of a specific example from a textbook. Participants explore the implications of notation and the mathematical identities involving the Levi-Civita symbol and the Jacobian.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the meaning of the parallel bars in the Levi-Civita symbol and suggests there may be a typo in the example provided.
  • Another participant explains that the parallel bars indicate antisymmetrization and provides a common notation for this process.
  • A participant raises a concern about whether antisymmetrizing the Levi-Civita symbol would change it, given its nature as a totally antisymmetric tensor.
  • There is a discussion about the factor of 1/2 in the antisymmetrization process and its purpose in maintaining consistency when dealing with already antisymmetric tensors.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the necessity of the factor of 1/2 in the context of the example, suggesting that it may not be needed.
  • A later reply clarifies that the convention used in the question may not include the factor of n! in antisymmetrization, but emphasizes that the equality in the example is still valid.
  • Another participant shares their experience of working through examples in 2D and 3D to better understand the mathematical identities related to the Levi-Civita symbol and determinants.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of the factor of 1/2 in antisymmetrization and whether the Levi-Civita symbol changes under this operation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific conventions and implications of the notation used.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about antisymmetrization conventions and the specific mathematical steps involved in the example. The discussion does not resolve these ambiguities.

zn52
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
hey Folks,
please have a look at the attached Ex from MTW. does somebody know what is the meaning of the parallel bars in the first levi civita symbol ? Is there a typo in this EX perhaps? I would have expected that on the right hand side one would see the product which is shown in the first formula and not the Jacobian...
Thank you,
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot.png
    Screenshot.png
    19.1 KB · Views: 1,258
Physics news on Phys.org
The lines mean antisymmetrisation. A more common notation is to use square brackets, so
<br /> T_{[\mu\nu]}=\frac{1}{2}\left(T_{\mu\nu}-T_{\nu\mu}\right)<br />
and more generally, if there are n indices in the brackets, it means a sum over all permutations of the indices, with a minus sign for odd permutations, all divided by n!, which is the total number of permutations. You might also see ordinary round brackets () which mean symmetrisation, in which case the signs are all +.
 
Isn't the Levi-Civita symbol a totally anti-symmetric (pseudo)-tensor, so anti-symmetrizing it...shouldn't change it though...right...o.O
 
thank you very much.
I have tried to expand the Levi-Civita symbol as you mentioned above, but how would the anti-symmetrisation yield the half on the RHS of the formula ?
 
I agree at least for 2 D...
 
The 1/2 is to make sure that if you have a tensor which is already anti-symmetric, then you don't have to do anything and get the same tensor back. Similarly, that's why you have the 1/n! for the symmetrization.
 
The issue in this very example is that on the LHS, if you would expand the Levi-Civita symbol using the antisymmetrisation you mentioned above, you will end up with the same symbol which is on he RHS. This would mean that the 1/2 has no place ! I'm may be confused or I'm I missing something ? I hope you see what I mean.
Thanks.
 
Apologies, I've reread the question and it looks like the convention the question uses for antisymmetrisation doesn't include the factor of n!. The equality between the first line and the final answer is unambiguously true though, so just make sure you can derive that.

The point of having the factor is that if you have an antisymmetric tensor A_{\mu\nu}, you can write it as A_{\mu\nu}=A_{\left[\mu\nu\right]}=\frac{1}{2}\left(A_{\mu\nu}-A_{\nu\mu}\right). The half appears because there are two terms, all of them equal. The same would hold for n indices, in which case there would be n! equal terms.
 
I thank you so much for your clarification and guidance. Now I have moved on after having worked intensively on the Levi-civita and determinants. I had to work through simple cases in 3D and 2D in order to understand these mathematical identities...
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
13K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
5K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
1K
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
11K