News Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, no fly zone

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CNN's Nic Robertson reported on the brutal detention of his crew by Gadhafi's forces in Libya, highlighting the violent reality of the conflict. Pro-Gadhafi forces are actively bombing rebel positions, particularly in Ras Lanuf, while international discussions intensify regarding intervention, including a potential no-fly zone supported by the Arab League. The U.S. has expanded sanctions against Gadhafi's regime, as calls for his departure grow louder from the EU. The situation raises ethical concerns about the international community's responsibility to intervene in the face of war crimes and humanitarian crises. The ongoing violence and the regime's disregard for civilian life underscore the urgency for decisive action.
  • #251
British, French and Italian military "advisors" are being sent to Libya to help train the rebels to be a more effective military force, while being quick to point out that they are not "ground troops":
France and Italy announced Wednesday that they will send military officers to advise rebels fighting for the ouster of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's regime.
Following a similar announcement by the British government Tuesday, French government spokesman Francois Baroin said a "small number" of French troops were being sent to advise the rebels' Transitional National Council.
French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet again ruled out sending ground troops to fight alongside the rebels.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/04/20/libya.war/index.html?hpt=T1

While these small numbers won't be engaging in autonomous combat, they are, nevertheless, armed foreign military personnel, on the ground, in Libya.
 
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  • #252
russ_watters said:
British, French and Italian military "advisors" are being sent to Libya to help train the rebels to be a more effective military force, while being quick to point out that they are not "ground troops": http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/04/20/libya.war/index.html?hpt=T1

While these small numbers won't be engaging in autonomous combat, they are, nevertheless, armed foreign military personnel, on the ground, in Libya.
I think they should stop engaging in these silly games instead should just kill Gadhaffi. British, French and Italian are only fueling a civil war and contributing to more causalities than there would have been without their intervention IMO.

One thing I find most disturbing that no one saw these revolutions coming (I read a BBC article in Feb that it was surprise for US). They could have been prevented if everyone including west acted responsibly (promoting economic reforms in these countries).
 
  • #253
rootX said:
I think they should stop engaging in these silly games instead should just kill Gadhaffi.

Can't. That's called assassination and was outlawed in 1976 by President Ford. However, executive order 12333 relaxed that, somewhat.

British, French and Italian are only fueling a civil war and contributing to more causalities than there would have been without their intervention IMO.

Last time I checked, the Libyan's started it. Not the British, French, or Italians.

One thing I find most disturbing that no one saw these revolutions coming (I read a BBC article in Feb that it was surprise for US). They could have been prevented if everyone including west acted responsibly (promoting economic reforms in these countries).

I doubt it. Things have been on edge throughout the Middle East for decades, complete with riots, rebellions, uprisings, and tons of murderous oppression. Things have been on a hair-trigger for a long time. All it took was the spark of Tunisia's successful ousting of their dictator, combined with viral Internet action, and the rest spread like wildfire.

As for the West promoting economic reforms, we meddle enough as it is. They're sovereign countries. It's no more our responsibility to stick our fingers in their pots than we'd allow them to dictate how we should run our own country.
 
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  • #254
rootX said:
I think they should stop engaging in these silly games instead should just kill Gadhaffi.

I think it's far from obvious that this would make he situation better. Someone could easily step into his role and continue his regime, except they might need to be even more brutal to assert their legitimacy
 
  • #256
mugaliens said:
Last time I checked, the Libyan's started it. Not the British, French, or Italians.

I doubt it. Things have been on edge throughout the Middle East for decades, complete with riots, rebellions, uprisings, and tons of murderous oppression. Things have been on a hair-trigger for a long time. All it took was the spark of Tunisia's successful ousting of their dictator, combined with viral Internet action, and the rest spread like wildfire.

As for the West promoting economic reforms, we meddle enough as it is. They're sovereign countries. It's no more our responsibility to stick our fingers in their pots than we'd allow them to dictate how we should run our own country.

See post#https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3216126&postcount=241".

Tunisia:
The
European Union and external actors supported Ben Ali’s regime almost unconditionally,
swayed by the former president’s pursuit of neo-liberal economic liberalization, as well
as his cooperation in securing other EU objectives, notably the fight against terrorism
and illegal migration.

The events in Tunisia of the last few weeks have brought to the fore the fundamental
difference between apparent stability and long-term sustainability, revealing how the
point at which an unsustainable status quo tips towards political and social instability is
often closer than expected.
http://www.iai.it/pdf/DocIAI/iaiwp1102.pdf

While it's not West's responsibility to promote long term sustainability in those countries but it is in the interest of West not to rely on knee-jerk unthoughtful policies.
 
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  • #257
russ_watters said:
John McCain flew to Libya to talk to the rebels and push for an expansion of our involvement: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/04/22/mccain.libya/index.html?hpt=T1

At least he is talking to the side that we support, unlike the last guy, but he's still undermining the power of the President by being there. I really hate it when Congressmen do this type of thing.

Me too, Congressmen or celebrities. Of course I hold Congressmen to a higher standard, though.
 
  • #258
NATO just attempted to kill him:
Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi escaped a NATO missile strike in Tripoli, but his youngest son and three grandchildren under the age of 12 were killed, a government spokesman said...

The attack struck the house of Gadhafi's youngest son, Seif al-Arab, when the Libyan leader and his wife were inside...

Seif al-Arab Gadhafi, 29, was the youngest son of Gadhafi and brother of the better known Seif al-Islam Gadhafi, who had been touted as a reformist before the uprising began in mid-February. The younger Gadhafi had spent much of his time in Germany in recent years.

Moammar Gadhafi and his wife were in the Tripoli house of his 29-year-old son when it was hit by at least one bomb dropped from a NATO warplane, according to Libyan spokesman Moussa Ibrahim.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-04-30-libya-gadhafi_n.htm

I'm very surprised. I didn't think anyone in the west had the stones to do something like that. I'm not sure if this is good or bad, though.
 
  • #259
russ_watters said:
NATO just attempted to kill him:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-04-30-libya-gadhafi_n.htm

I'm very surprised. I didn't think anyone in the west had the stones to do something like that. I'm not sure if this is good or bad, though.

They tried it back 20 years ago... That's when he stopped being such a douche to the west



until now that is...
 
  • #260
russ_watters said:
NATO just attempted to kill him...

You are incorrect, Sir.

Ryumast3r said:
They tried it back 20 years ago...

You are incorrect, as well.

Folks, we do not target the leaders of countries. Our targets are military in nature, and the mere presence of a country's leader does NOT in and of itself qualify a target to be labled as "military."

On the other hand, if a country's leader chooses to remain at a decidedly military target, they're taking a significant risk upon themselves. Furthermore, if a country's leader drags their family with them to military targets, they're putting their family in harm's way, as well.

Khadafi and other leaders in the broader region have repeatedly resorted to the practice of hiding military operations behind civilians (or other non-combatants) in the mistaken hope that the military targets would be protected. This practice was common during both the initial and second invasions of Iraq in the early 90s and early 00s, both by dragging civilians to military targets, as well as moving military targets into civilian (non-combatant) facilities, such as hospitals. Under International Law, the first action holds the leader liable for any civilian deaths (such as the death of his daughter years ago, and his son and grandchildren today), and the second action is subject to a war crimes tribunal.

Khadafi appears intent on choosing courses of action which have and will continue to wind up badly for himself and his family.

Meanwhile, British, French, NATO, and other forces have, and will continue to abide by well-established international law governing the warfare.
 
  • #261
mugaliens said:
Folks, we do not target the leaders of countries. Our targets are military in nature, and the mere presence of a country's leader does NOT in and of itself qualify a target to be labled as "military."

On the other hand, if a country's leader chooses to remain at a decidedly military target, they're taking a significant risk upon themselves.
Sorry, it's you that is incorrect. The leader of a country is the head of the military and as such is always a military target, just like any other military leader. His presence at the house of a civilian can turn that house into a military target. While it's possible there was a military facility in/under it (we don't actually have information either way), I don't believe in coincidences. The timing of the attack points to an attempt to kill Ghadaffi.
Furthermore, if a country's leader drags their family with them to military targets, they're putting their family in harm's way, as well.
It was his son's house! The only one "dragged" there was his wife! His son died in his own house.
Khadafi and other leaders in the broader region have repeatedly resorted to the practice of hiding military operations behind civilians (or other non-combatants) in the mistaken hope that the military targets would be protected.
While that's true, that does not appear to be the case here.

And frankly, I think it is naive to believe that we (or in this case NATO, possibly without our input) wouldn't go after him specifically, regardless of Carter's executive order.
 
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  • #263
Good analysis in that article, including of the issue of legality of an assassination attempt:
Assassination of a head of state is illegal under international law, and forbidden by various US presidential orders. On the other hand, the targeted killing of those woven into the enemy chain of command is shrouded in legal ambiguity.

Given the personalistic nature of the regime, and the "all means necessary" clause in UN Resolution 1973, it might be argued that killing Col Muammar Gaddafi and certain members of his family - such as his son Khamis, commander of an elite military brigade - would be permissible, even if it posed a risk to those non-combatants around the regime.

Legality, though, indicates neither legitimacy nor prudence. This strike, and the death of Saif al-Arab, have produced little military result at the greatest diplomatic and symbolic cost to Nato.
 
  • #264
A month has passed since my last post here. What has changed?

Nothing.

...except perhaps the level of impatience:
The Republican-controlled House of Representatives issued a rebuke of President Barack Obama's Libya policy Friday, passing a measure declaring that the president has failed to provide a "compelling rationale" for military involvement in the North African country.

The non-binding resolution criticizes the president for insufficiently consulting Congress before launching air strikes in Libya and urges the administration not to put any ground troops in the country, something Obama has already promised not to do.

The measure, reflecting what GOP leaders consider a lack of presidential deference to the legislative branch, passed in a 268-145 vote. Most Republicans supported it, while most Democrats were opposed.

House members rejected a separate resolution offered by Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, calling for the withdrawal of U.S. forces from the NATO-led military operation. Kucinich's measure was defeated in a 148-265 vote.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/03/house.libya/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

That's potential ammunition for a War Powers Act fight, but so far it is just rhetoric.

Also recently, NATO extended the air campaign by another 90 days (past the first 90 days): http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/06/01/nato-extends-libya-military-campaign/

And for the first time, NATO (but not the US) is using attack helicopters: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-06-04-libya-bombing_n.htm

So here's my issue: We discussed right from the start that this would likely become an insta-quagmire and it did. So what did Obama and NATO think would happen? How did they misplay this so badly? Did they launch an air campaign based on wishful thinking? What is their plan now?
 
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  • #265
1)
Just some fancy (and stupid) stuff:

In Benghazi, Ms Obeidi's home city, Marwa al-Obeidi said a human rights group helped by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had organised for Eman and their father to travel in a private plane to Washington, via Malta and Austria.

"We just want a chance for her to be treated psychologically and to rest," she told the Associated Press news agency. "My sister has just been through so much."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13663266

I don't know why they always have the tendency to turn everything so hollywood ...

reminds of recent mine workers accident - people went so crazy over that stuff and you will see same sensationalism here.2)
Libya: Benghazi rebel visit for senior US official

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13501251
 
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  • #266
seems there is some effort afoot to get fuel and euros to the rebels.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303745304576357294173075536.html

meanwhile, libyan rebel leaders deny that any of this talk with Eni involves scrapping/renegotiating of old contracts
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/02/us-energy-libya-deals-idUSTRE75154220110602

so there's a lot of talk, rumors, and denials about meetings with people over money. hard to not think there's something up. and just now, the libyan top oil guy defects. that probably means he knows what is up, and that the old regime is about to get cut off.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2011/me_libya0682_06_05.asp

so what now? well, there was a NATO attack on gadafi just yesterday before the defection. probably to soften things up a bit for the rebels to go in and seize the oil port of Brega.
http://tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=6119

anyhoo, looks like things might be heating back up again, russ. assuming their ducks are all rowed now.
 
  • #267
so NATO has no UN authorization to go in and occupy Libya. but what they seem to be doing at them moment is fighting the battles so that rebels can move into occupy the deserted positions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13665963title is deceiving:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZKGpsunkTA

how much fighting will the rebels actually do? maybe one last battle at tripoli? then we hand them the economic keys and leave them to it?
 
  • #269
Obama was sued today (again) over potential War Powers resolution violation wrt our involvement in Libya. Also today, Obama says the Libya involvement is too small for the War Powers resolution to be relevant:
"The president is of the view that the current U.S. military operations in Libya are consistent with the War Powers Resolution and do not under that law require further congressional authorization, because U.S. military operations are distinct from the kind of 'hostilities' contemplated by the resolution's 60-day termination provision."
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/15/war.powers.libya/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
 
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  • #270
  • #271
rootX said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/18/world/africa/18powers.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&hp
The theory Mr. Obama embraced holds that American forces have not been in “hostilities” as envisioned by the War Powers Resolution at least since early April, when NATO took over the responsibility for the no-fly zone and the United States shifted to a supporting role providing refueling assistance and surveillance — although remotely piloted American drones are still periodically firing missiles.

The administration has also emphasized that there are no troops on the ground, that Libyan forces are unable to fire at them meaningfully and that the military mission is constrained from escalating by a United Nations Security Council resolution.

great. so it's just a video game now. and we're completely numb and immune to the effects of violence if we feel safe from any retribution.
http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/children_and_video_games_playing_with_violence

even if our being there is justified, I'm finding the reasoning used to justify avoiding congressional approval totally psychopathic.
 
  • #272
It's definitely going to be interesting if that lawsuit goes forward. He could be fighting two meaty lawsuits while campaigning for re-election!
 
  • #273
While I hesitantly support the actions in Libya, I strongly support getting congressional approval for continued action. If congress does not vote for continued support, we need to back out until they do. I support Obama on many things, but he's dead wrong here.
 
  • #274
south carolina senator Lindsey Graham was on Meet the Press sunday. he said that if we didn't get gadaffi, that oil prices were going to double. in fact, he spoke it twice.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43441440/ns/meet_the_press-transcripts/

SEN. GRAHAM: Well, you know, one, I would take the course that conservatives have been taking for the last 30 years. The War Powers Act is unconstitutional, not worth the paper it's written on. It requires congressional approval before the commander in chief can commit troops after a certain period of time, and it would allow troops to be withdrawn based on the passage of a concurrent resolution never presented to the president. So I think it's an infringement on the, the, the power of the commander in chief. The president's done a lousy job of communicating and managing our involvement in Libya, but I will be no part of an effort to defund Libya or to try to cut off our efforts to bring Khaddafy down. If we fail against Khaddafy, that's the end of NATO. Egypt's going to be overrun and the "Mad Dog of the Mideast," what Ronald Reagan called Khaddafy, if he survives this, you're going to have double the price of oil that you have today because he will take the whole region and put it in, into chaos. And I will be--I won't be any part of that. So from my Republican point of view, the president needs to step up his game in Libya, but Congress should sort of shut up and not empower Khaddafy. Because he wrote a letter to the Congressional leadership basically thanking them for their involvement in trying to end this conflict.

SEN. GRAHAM: Well, we do. We had an opportunity to end this very quickly. The day you took American air power out of--off the table, NATO became a weakened organization. But we are making progress. Khaddafy is on his last leg. The rebels are getting stronger. They've taken the fight to Tripoli. I said about four weeks ago, "Go after Khaddafy's inner circle, break their will." We're pounding Tripoli. But the big mistake was to take American air power off the table. What I would like to see is for America to rejoin NATO when it comes to an aerial bombardment. We don't need ground troops. And if you don't think Khaddafy surviving affects America's national security interests. We're just on different planets. If this guy survives, it's the end of NATO, our standing in the world goes down, Egypt gets overrun by refugees and the Mad Dog of the Mideast, Khaddafy, is out of his cage, and you're going to see oil prices double.

and apparently, the price of oil is a national security interest.

i can see NATO being a national security interest, but much of that is the fault of the rest of the NATO countries cutting their own defense budgets and losing former capabilities. how else to get europe to change its behavior and fund their own militaries? if we "step up to the plate" now (more than we have), they will have no incentive to do so.

middle east chaos? we're pretty selective about that, eh? things have only gotten worse in bahrain, our home base for the navy there.

and I'm not sure our standing goes down. it's been pretty clear from the beginning that we don't want to own this war, we're just supporting our allies. maybe Graham should be the one to "shut up" about libya.
 
  • #275
It seems that Qaddafi has some support from Libiyan people. On Friday June 17, thousands of people went to demonstration in Tripoli to support Qaddafi.
One can find this information in reuters' website http://in.reuters.com/video/2011/06/18/thousands-march-in-pro-gaddafi-rally-in?videoId=216060503&videoChannel=-9994"

Unfortunately, I could not find any information on this demonstration in NY tymes or BBC. If someone can please let me know.
The demonstration and speach of Qaddafi one can find on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt3l_dm0zhE
 
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  • #276
Proton Soup said:
and apparently, the price of oil is a national security interest.

I'm confused. Are you saying the middle east is ever really about anything but the oil? Count the number of US bases in the region, let alone the number of military interventions over the past few decades.

I'm not sure on what grounds the senator is claiming that Gaddafi has intentions to take over Egypt or anyone else, so the quotes sound off-beam. But he is speaking realpolitik in saying that US believes it has the "national security right" to ensure oil prices stay low.

It's not about democratic principles or human rights or any other namby-pamby issue.
 
  • #277
apeiron said:
I'm confused. Are you saying the middle east is ever really about anything but the oil? Count the number of US bases in the region, let alone the number of military interventions over the past few decades.

I'm not sure on what grounds the senator is claiming that Gaddafi has intentions to take over Egypt or anyone else, so the quotes sound off-beam. But he is speaking realpolitik in saying that US believes it has the "national security right" to ensure oil prices stay low.

It's not about democratic principles or human rights or any other namby-pamby issue.

yes, i know, but there are some here who do not believe in realpolitik, they believe we are engaging in wars for much higher purposes, like preventing rebels from being slaughtered (have you seen the vids of refugees being slaughted escaping syria?). and so it becomes necessary, whenever evidence presents itself, to present it. and that is all that i am doing here.

you can find some other posts I've made on the topic if you dig for them. if you ask me, much of this goes back to prior mumblings from gadaffi about not getting enough money for libya's oil, and talking openly about nationalizing the oil to set the price. ~1 year after saying that, britain releases the Lockerbie terrorist under suspicious testimony from a couple of doctors. the Arab Spring then leads to demonstrations and crackdowns in various arab nations, leaving a convenient opportunity to get rid of him.
 
  • #278
Proton Soup said:
yes, i know, but there are some here who do not believe in realpolitik,

OK, I'm less confused now. I misread the reason for your quoting. :smile:

As for US policy in the Middle East, that still is confusing as, for realpolitik, it seems to have lost touch with reality.

It definitely used to be just about the oil. With Carter Doctrine, Reagan corollary, and senior official statements up to 2000, there was no doubt that repressive regimes were fine so long as the oil flowed.

But with Bush junior and neo-con organisations like the Project for a New American Century, the US did switch to a public declaration that it was about re-engineering the politics of the region, believing democratisation would be a pancea for the problems of the area.

This was so shockingly naive as foreign policy, and appallingly handled in practice, that most outsiders believed it must be just a front for the latest version of the oil game.

Perhaps there was a "clever" motive in the recognition that nationalised oil companies in the area would be difficult to deal with, and inefficient in their oil extraction, as oil peaked. Forcing democratisation and free markets would allow outside oil companies to move in and do a better job from a consumers point of view.

Yet this seemed a lot of immediate pain (in terms of the various wars) for an uncertain gain in 20 years time.

But what could else could explain US policy as rational rather than naive dreaming?

Yes, there had to be some kind of "war on terrorism", but everyone knew it ought to have been a police action, not a US invasion of random countries.

Some other unlikely sounding reasons have been advance, like the claim it is all about protecting the petro-dollar (people seem to get invaded every time they switch their oil transactions to euros).

Perhaps the reasons were irrational but quite human - the US had built up such a weight of military and flash new military gear in the area that there grew an uncontrollable urge to use it on someone. There was a belief that the US could knock over anyone with minimal losses to self.

And this was a true belief of course. But the disconnect was that after the quick military success would come the inevitable nation-building morasse. Again, the pain would outweigh the gain in any sane longterm rational choice.

Libya is the same set of questions all over again. The realpolitik shows in that very different choices are being made over Libya and Syria, for instance. The West has scores to settle with Libya, it is also more strategic with its oil reserves and under Gaddafi always a dangerous wild card in the area.

So what is the bottom-line diagnosis? That the US has built up such a might of military muscle to police the world's key oil reserves that it has become politically impossible to resist using it for irrational fantasies like defeating terrorism and engineering democracy?
 
  • #279
there is certainly always a desire to upgrade military capabilities and try out new toys. this goes back to Eisenhower and his military-industrial(-academia)-complex speech. Rumsfeld was rather obvious about his part in this. that fulfilled the defense industry interests. as for the rest of it, the major players and motivators seem to be oil, averting further retaliation on US soil, and israel. maybe banking.

it's not just the middle east, tho. oil nationalization is not appreciated in venezuela and bolivia, either.
 
  • #280
apeiron said:
But what could else could explain US policy as rational rather than naive dreaming?

apeiron,

There is an interesting interpretation of wars in the Middle East by professors Nitzan from York University and Bichler from Israel. They have a complex argument, therefore it is difficult to give it justice in several lines. You can find their article here http://bnarchives.yorku.ca/1/"
Article is published in Journal of World-Systems Research and titled “Dominant Capital and the New Wars”. It is 37 pages long, so if you do not have time I recommend to read chapter 12. ‘Energy conflicts’ and section “The New Wars” in chapter 14.

Briefly, if one compares performance of Fortune 500 companies against performance of major oil companies, one will notice that since late 1960s all major Middle-East conflicts followed by a period in which major oil companies beat Fortune 500 average.
Except year of 1996-1997, major oil company performed worse then Fortune 500 average before the wars and beat the average during the war. It seems that major oil companies need a war to beat Fortune 500 average.

These are bothering facts. Of course, the reasons for war are more complicated than profits of oil companies. And authors do not think that oil companies control US government. They put these wars in broader context of global accumulation. They say roughly that there are two ways of accumulation. One is through breadth that includes merges and acquisitions and green field investments.
This needs peace. And we see it in 1990s with hi-tech boom. But then the cycle comes to end.
Another way is through inflation that goes together with stagnation. During inflation prices do not rise homogeneously, therefore one can accumulate more relatively to others if his prices rises faster than the average. Inflation correlates with high prices of oil. High prices of oil means more profit for oil companies. And as we saw in the previous paragraph, this means war in the Middle-East. Because war creates perception of risk that drives prices up. It seems that this process we see now.

This is very brief summary of the article. I thought it has an interesting perspective.

apeiron said:
Perhaps the reasons were irrational but quite human - the US had built up such a weight of military and flash new military gear in the area that there grew an uncontrollable urge to use it on someone. There was a belief that the US could knock over anyone with minimal losses to self.

This is also maybe true. The other beneficiaries of wars in the middle-east are sellers of arms. This is also mentioned in the article.

apeiron said:
The West has scores to settle with Libya, it is also more strategic with its oil reserves and under Gaddafi always a dangerous wild card in the area.

Proton Soup said:
it's not just the middle east, tho. oil nationalization is not appreciated in venezuela and bolivia, either.

Nationalization is an interesting point that may have contributed to the wars.
 
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  • #281
vici10 said:
There is an interesting interpretation of wars in the Middle East by professors Nitzan from York University and Bichler from Israel.

Thanks, I'll check that out.

I've been looking for credible research on this question and these two articles were worth reading.

http://harrisschool.uchicago.edu/programs/courses/mini-courses/pdf/democracy.pdf

http://www.ifri.org/files/politique_etrangere/Article_Noel.pdf

They take the Bush Jr democratisation doctrine at face value and try to make sense of things.

But I think it is telling that we can be so torn between the view that either US foreign policy in ME has been rationally self-interested (and humanitarian stuff is the usual smokescreen) or it has been emotionally-driven and really believes its own propaganda.

Both are bad alternatives. Yet I'm not sure which I think is worse! Is a psychopath worse than a psychotic?! Both can be pretty dangerous. But it would be nice to know the real diagnosis.
 
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  • #282
apeiron said:
I've been looking for credible research on this question and these two articles were worth reading.

Thank you for the articles, I will look into them.

apeiron said:
But I think it is telling that we can be so torn between the view that either US foreign policy in ME has been rationally self-interested (and humanitarian stuff is the usual smokescreen) or it has been emotionally-driven and really believes its own propaganda.

I believe it was both, rational self-interest and belief that they “bring democracy” to these countries.
But before to explain why I think so, I should do more clarification.

First, what does it mean US self-interest? US is a big country, so whose self-interest? I doubt that wars in the Middle East improved lives of ordinary Americans. Another matter is business class, that becomes increasingly international. By business class, I mean major corporations that can be approximated by Fortune500.

We know that oil companies, military contractors definitely benefited from these wars. (There are more military contractors in Iraq than there is US Army personnel there.) But the rest of major corporations benefited too, indirectly.
In the beginning of 2000s, there was a fear of deflation. It is telling that even Greenspan warned of “unwelcome substantial fall in inflation”.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/files/FOMC20030506meeting.pdf"
Deflation in US in the roughly last hundred years only happened during Great Depression. Business class fears deflation more than it fears inflation. Sometimes inflation is good for business, but deflation is always bad. Historically, inflation correlates with high prices of oil, and historically, conflicts in the Middle East drive prices of oil up. Hence the conclusion, in order to prevent deflation and start inflation, one needs to start a conflict in the Middle East. Of course, these things are not deterministic, these are not laws of nature. But simply because these things happened in the past it was expected to happen in the future as well. So in some sense wars in the Middle east benefited the rest of big business.

Second, when one speaks about democracy, and bringing democracy to other countries, one should clarify what does one mean by democracy. Democracy can be in different forms, for example democracy in workplace or direct democracy like in ancient Athens among citizens of Athens. It seems clear to me that not this kind of democracy was meant by people who plan to invade middle-eastern countries. It is anathema in US to talk about democracy in workplace. The regime in most corporations is dictatorial and hierarchical. And it seems common sense to many people, since they do not know any different. It seems to me that by democracy, business class means the regime that is open for business.
Also, members of business class are also human beings. It is very beguiling to believe in something that profits you and it is a sedative trap to think that what is good for you should be good for a world at large. As Bernard Show once sad in his play “The Man of Destiny”:
But every Englishman is born with a certain miraculous power that makes him master of the world. When he wants a thing, he never tells himself that he wants it. He waits patiently until there comes into his mind, no one knows how, a burning conviction that it is his moral and religious duty to conquer those who have got the thing he wants.
Regarding ordinary Americans, who do not benefit from these wars, the “Red Scare” exists in America already for more than 80 years and it would be strange that they would be completely immune to it.
 
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  • #283
vici10 said:
Second, when one speaks about democracy, and bringing democracy to other countries, one should clarify what does one mean by democracy. Democracy can be in different forms, for example democracy in workplace or direct democracy like in ancient Athens among citizens of Athens. It seems clear to me that not this kind of democracy was meant by people who plan to invade middle-eastern countries.
I have no idea what you are rambling on about. It is apparent you are not an American and English is not your first language, but please explain what you are trying to say.

It is anathema in US to talk about democracy in workplace.
Again, you are not in the US and not an American, so I need to point out that you are wrong. You seem to have come to this forum to spread propaganda.

The regime in most corporations is dictatorial and hierarchical. And it seems common sense to many people, since they do not know any different. It seems to me that by democracy, business class means the regime that is open for business.
What the heck are you talking about?
 
  • #284
Going back to Libya,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13853210
The top foreign affairs official in Libya's opposition has arrived in China for talks with the Beijing government.
China has oil interests in the north African state and evacuated 30,000 of its workers at the start of the conflict in February.

As for NATO,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13826976
Libya has accused Nato of killing at least five people in an air strike that hit a house in the capital Tripoli.
The Libya government accused NATO for targeting civilians. Later, I believe NATO accepted that it was a mistake.

So far, I have seen anything positive for NATO.
 
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  • #286
vici10 said:
It is anathema in US to talk about democracy in workplace. The regime in most corporations is dictatorial and hierarchical. And it seems common sense to many people, since they do not know any different.
The reason it's common sense is that most realize that the term "democracy" refers to how government is controlled, not how private decisions are made by private citizens. Most corporations in the U.S. are privately owned, not owned by or a part of government, so the term "regime" is completely inapplicable. The relationships within a private corporation are private and voluntary.

The word democracy does not (necessarily) mean that every person is attached to puppet strings under majority control, it means only that government is attached to such puppet strings.
 
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  • #287
rootX said:

Beijing may be asked to consider giving financial assistance to the rebels; Italy, France, Kuwait and Qatar have pledged money so far.

i'm guessing this won't go over well at NATO. there was a lot of talks with the rebels about funding, but nothing seems to have shaken loose. so instead, it seems they are seeking hard currency from other sources.

as for what is up with NATO's attitude here, I'm not sure. but it seems a bit as if NATO wants to conduct the war on its own and leave the rebels out of it except for photo ops. and once they assassinate Gadaffi, they may want to choose their own leadership.

no doubt China would enjoy throwing a monkey wrench into all this and perhaps securing more of Libya's reserves for itself.
 
  • #288
Proton Soup said:
i'm guessing this won't go over well at NATO. there was a lot of talks with the rebels about funding, but nothing seems to have shaken loose. so instead, it seems they are seeking hard currency from other sources.

as for what is up with NATO's attitude here, I'm not sure. but it seems a bit as if NATO wants to conduct the war on its own and leave the rebels out of it except for photo ops. and once they assassinate Gadaffi, they may want to choose their own leadership.

no doubt China would enjoy throwing a monkey wrench into all this and perhaps securing more of Libya's reserves for itself.

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts...es_now_officially_recognize_the_libyan_rebels
lists countries that have recognized Libya rebels group.

Canada was recent one:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110615/ap_on_re_ca/cn_canada_libya_2

I am not sure about the position of China and Russia. Blog states:
"Russia and China. Both countries abstained in the Security Council vote authorizing a no-fly zone in Libya and have yet to cut off ties with Qaddafi. A Russian envoy might meet with him again this week in Tripoli. "

However, recognization is not equivalent to funding rebels.
 
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  • #289
Anyone know where a relatively up-to-date map/list of control over libya is? I've looked and can only seem to find reports into like march/april/early may with a list.
 
  • #290
Interesting comment Obama made while a candidate with implications here:
Savage asked Obama, "In what circumstances, if any, would the president have constitutional authority to bomb Iran without seeking a use-of-force authorization from Congress? (Specifically, what about the strategic bombing of suspected nuclear sites -- a situation that does not involve stopping an IMMINENT threat?)"

While the specific context of Savage’s question concerned Iranian nuclear plants, we think Obama’s answer raised some points that are relevant for assessing the justification for the Libyan operation three years later.

Obama said, "The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation."...

Kal Raustiala, a University of California at Los Angeles law professor, said that, "on the merits, he is right now and was wrong then." Legal commentator Stuart Taylor Jr. said he sees "no plausible loophole. He may possibly be right now ... but if so, he was wrong then."

So where does this leave us? In 2007, Obama was adamant that the president did not have the power to authorize an attack if there was no imminent threat to the U.S. But now he has authorized just such an action. Full Flop.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-obamas-libya-intervention-flip-flop-what-he/

Now the War Powers implications of this are that he went much further than the War Powers Resolution with his statement: not even the WPR requires Congressional approval before a military engagement, only after.
 
  • #291
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/p..._admiral_admits_we_are_trying_to_kill_qaddafi

...
House Armed Services Committee member Mike Turner (R-OH) told The Cable that U.S. Admiral Samuel Locklear, commander of the NATO Joint Operations Command in Naples, Italy, told him last month that NATO forces are actively targeting and trying to kill Qaddafi, despite the fact that the Obama administration continues to insist that "regime change" is not the goal and is not authorized by the U.N. mandate authorizing the war.

"The U.N. authorization had three components: blockade, no fly zone, and civil protection. And Admiral Locklear explained that the scope of civil protection was being interpreted to permit the removal of the chain of command of Qaddafi's military, which includes Qaddafi," Turner said. "He said that currently is the mission as NATO has defined."
...
 
  • #292
Wow, this story was on the front section of CNN.com for less than a day...guess it wasn't all that important!
The United States now recognizes the main opposition group in Libya "as the legitimate governing authority" in a country that Moammar Gadhafi has long ruled with an iron first, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Friday.
U.S. recognition of the Transitional National Council is a major diplomatic policy shift that could give the rebels access to Libyan regime assets that have been frozen by the United States.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/07/15/libya.us.recognition/index.html?iref=storysearch

Frankly, I just don't see the relevance of this move. Sure it means we can Robin-hood some of Muamar's money to the rebels, but is that really going to accomplish anything?
 
  • #293
russ_watters said:
Wow, this story was on the front section of CNN.com for less than a day...guess it wasn't all that important! http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/07/15/libya.us.recognition/index.html?iref=storysearch

Frankly, I just don't see the relevance of this move. Sure it means we can Robin-hood some of Muamar's money to the rebels, but is that really going to accomplish anything?

hmm, not sure. i remember reading something a few days ago about france being ready to negotiate with the old regime. whether it's about putting pressure on france or putting pressure on ghadafi, i can't tell.

"So I am announcing today that, until an interim authority is in place, the United States will recognize the TNC as the legitimate governing authority for Libya, and we will deal with it on that basis."

The United States had previously stopped short of giving this recognition to the council, but Clinton said the body, based in Benghazi, Libya, "has offered important assurances today."

They include "the promise to pursue a process of democratic reform that is inclusive both geographically and politically, to uphold Libya's international obligations and to disburse funds in a transparent manner to address the humanitarian and other needs of the Libyan people."

it's not exactly an enthusiastic endorsement, terms may change, and conditions apply. how to interpret those "international obligations"? providing oil under previous terms in previously agreed currencies?
 
  • #294
I also read on BBC about attempts to seek a diplomatic solution, it was very unclear how.
 
  • #295


russ_watters said:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/18/obama.no.fly/index.html?hpt=T1

Obama's lack of leadership is glaring yet again. He's taken heat throughout this event for being wishy-washy and not leading, but this is just too much. In a brief, token show of leadership, he asked for and got a UN resolution for a no-fly zone, but now he's not going to lead that effort? What the hell?!

This UN resolution has a very real chance of doing more harm than good. It gave Ghadaffi an internationally-sanctioned way out of the crisis that preserves his rule.

Criticism from Gingrich: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...-loudly-has-no-stick/?iref=allsearch&hpt=Sbin

Note: Gingrich said that before Obama gave his speech this afternoon saying he wasn't going to support the NFZ with weapons.

I disagree with him on the first part, though: Obama talks eloquently when discussing vague generalities and idealistic principles, but when it comes to leadership, he talks mumblingly, not loudly. From downplaying terrorist attacks to giving confusing and contradictory messages to Egypt and Libya, he's proving what I always believed and often said: being a great public speaker is not the same as being a great leader. Much to my shock, he was able to convince people the Earth was flat with a few of his campaign promises, but I expected that when forced to start dealing with realities that require leadership, he'd start fumbling.

What have you said about Obama and his policies that hasn't proven to be wrong?
 
  • #296


Ivan Seeking said:
What have you said about Obama and his policies that hasn't proven to be wrong?

To be fair, just because his prediction wasn't correct doesn't mean his assessment was wrong. In fact, most of what Russ said is/was true. It's just that it happened to work out well in this case. It isn't untrue to say that Obama was the one to spearheaded the push for civil war in Libya, and it isn't untrue to say that he then took a background role. Was civil war brewing? Yup. Would it have been this successful without international aid? Nope?

If the illustrious former-President Bush had done the exact same thing, people would be accusing him of trying to topple the Libyan government at the expensive of Libyan civilians for the purpose of driving oil prices down... or up (I can never remember what those war-based oil conspiracies are accused of trying to do).

Just playing devil's advocate.
 
  • #297
I've just reread some of the earlier posts in this thread, and I'm still optimistic for the future of Libya. The rebels are talking about restraint and reconciliation, the Arab League, the West and emerging economies may all talk about assisting in reconstruction, the right sounds are being made, does the world have the will to make it happen? Don't know, it could all turn to cow dung yet. This does seem to be playing out differently in many ways than previous conflicts, hope things play out for the better. Obama did the right thing to step back and let other nations take responsibility.
 
  • #298
Do Islamists take over in Libya?
The commander of the Libyan rebel Tripoli Military Council is Abdel Hakim Belhadj, former Emir of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), which was banned internationally as a terrorist organization following the 9/11 attacks.

From Sunday Telegraph:
The man now emerging as the rebels' main military commander, and in charge of the newly-unified military operations in Tripoli, may present problems of a different sort. Abdel Hakim Belhadj is a former commander in the now defunct Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, once loosely allied to al-Qaeda. He was praised by Osama bin Laden's number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri, as an "emir of the mujahideen" as recently as 2007.
Mr Belhadj spent time in Afghanistan and has been interrogated by the CIA.
In the 1990s, as LIFG commander, he stated that the group opposed all who advocate democracy or believed that Islam's victory could be achieved by any means other than jihad.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8727426/Why-the-fall-of-Tripoli-will-not-be-another-Baghdad.html"
 
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  • #299
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-14703372

The leaders of the forces which deposed Col Gaddafi in Libya have said they do not intend to allow the extradition of the Lockerbie bomber.

"We will not hand over any Libyan nationals, it's Gaddafi who hands over Libyan nationals."

I find that tone bit troubling.
 
  • #300
cobalt124 said:
I've just reread some of the earlier posts in this thread, and I'm still optimistic for the future of Libya. The rebels are talking about restraint and reconciliation, the Arab League, the West and emerging economies may all talk about assisting in reconstruction, the right sounds are being made, does the world have the will to make it happen? Don't know, it could all turn to cow dung yet. This does seem to be playing out differently in many ways than previous conflicts, hope things play out for the better. Obama did the right thing to step back and let other nations take responsibility.

So far, the rebels have been united by the common enemy, Gaddafi. I think bringing Libya back to the track (and better than it was under Gaddafi) will be much more difficult than getting rid of Gaddafi.

I hope they stay united under centralized government once Gaddafi is killed.
 

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