Linear algebra, when does the implications hold?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of linear transformations in linear algebra, specifically focusing on the relationships between linear independence, linear dependence, and the properties of the transformation. Participants explore various scenarios involving a linear transformation T from vector space A to vector space B, examining conditions under which certain implications hold true.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if T(A*) is linearly independent, then A* must also be linearly independent, suggesting no restrictions on T.
  • Others argue that if T(A*) is linearly dependent, A* can only be concluded as linearly independent if T is one-to-one; if T is not one-to-one, no conclusion can be drawn about A*.
  • There is a question regarding the requirement for span(T(A*)) = B to imply span(A*) = A, with some suggesting that injectivity is necessary, while others question the sufficiency of surjectivity alone.
  • Participants discuss the implications of span(T(A*)) ≠ B and what conditions must be met to conclude that span(A*) ≠ A, noting that injectivity alone may not be sufficient.
  • A participant provides a counterexample to challenge the implications, illustrating that T(A*) can be linearly dependent while A* remains independent.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of linear transformations, with no consensus reached on the conditions required for the implications to hold. Multiple competing views remain regarding the necessity of injectivity and surjectivity in various scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on specific examples and counterexamples, which may not universally apply. The discussion highlights the complexity of linear transformations and the conditions under which certain implications can be drawn, but these conditions remain unresolved.

bobby2k
Messages
126
Reaction score
2
Hi, I have 4 implications I am interested in, I think I know the answer to the first 2, but the last two is not something I know, however they are related to the first 2 so I will include all to be sure.

Assume that T is a linear transformation from from vectorspace A to B.

T: A -> B
A* is n vectors in A, that is A* = {a1, a2, an}

1.
T(A*) linearly independent -> A* linearly independent
If T(A*) is linearly independent, then A* must be linearly independent, without any requirements for T?

2.
T(A*) lindearly dependent -> A* linearly dependent
If T(A*) is linearly dependent, then we can only conclude that A* is linearly independent only if T is 1-1, if T is not 1-1 we can not conlude anything?

3.
span(T(A*))=B -> span(A*)= A
If span(T(A*)) = B, what requirement must we have to conlude that span(A*) = A. That T is 1-1, surejective, both or none?

4.
span(T(A*)) ≠ B -> span(A*) ≠ A*
If span(T(A*)) is not B what must we have to conlude that span(A*) is not A? Will this implication hold if T is 1-1, surjective, both or none?

thanks
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
1. If c1a1+...+cnan=0, then T(c1a1+...+cnan)=0. So no restrictions.
2. Injectivity is not needed. Consider T: R^3->R^2. T(x,y,z)=(x,y). Surjectivity is not needed. Consider
T: R^2->R^3. T(x,y)=(x,y,0).
3. Let B={0} and you'll see surjectivity isn't enough. 1-1 is. Think of any x in A and consider T(x)=c1T(a1)+c2T(a2)+...+cnT(an).
4. Your last statement is equivalent to span(A*)=A -> span(T(A*)) = B. If dim(A)<dim(B) and you have n=dim(A) vectors, this is not true. So injectivity is not enough. Surjectivity is though. Consider y in B. Then there is an x in A such that T(x)=y. Or T(c1a1+...cnan)=y.
 
The word is 'linearly'.
 
johnqwertyful said:
2. Injectivity is not needed. Consider T: R^3->R^2. T(x,y,z)=(x,y). Surjectivity is not needed. Consider
T: R^2->R^3. T(x,y)=(x,y,0).
Hey, thanks man.
I just have some more questions, are you allowed to prove a general statement with examples?

Also, i am not sure about the example.
T(x,y,z) = (x,y)
if A* = {(1,1,0),(1,1,1)}
then T(A*) = {(1,1),(1,1)}
so T(A*) is linearly dependent, but A* is not, so the implication is false here.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K