List of H20 breakdown substances

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When salt is added to water, the water H20 molecule breaks apart. If you add apple juice to water, does it also happen? I'd like to see list of all substances that when added to water can break apart the H20 molecules and manner of breakup. Which of them is like salt added to water? Thank you.


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  • #2
Borek
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When salt is added to water, the water H20 molecule breaks apart.
It doesn't. It can undergo some reactions in some cases for some salts, but in most cases these are the same reactions that occur in water even without any salt added, just the equilibrium is shifted.

I'd like to see list of all substances that when added to water can break apart the H20 molecules and manner of breakup.
It doesn't work this way. At best we can list some groups/classes of substances that can react with each other. Making a full list is impossible, as there is no such thing as a finite list of compounds.
 
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  • #3
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It doesn't. It can undergo some reactions in some cases for some salts, but in most cases these are the same reactions that occur in water even without any salt added, just the equilibrium is shifted.



It doesn't work this way. At best we can list some groups/classes of substances that can react with each other. Making a full list is impossible, as there is no such thing as a finite list of compounds.
Ok, let's not list billions or infinite number of compounds but just a dozen or so. What other substances are polar and can react with water molecules like the following descriptions?

"When table salt is placed in water, the slightly electropositive sodium portion is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water molecules. At the same time, the slightly electronegative chlorine portion of NaCl is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water.
In neither case is a true bond created, but the attractions set up a "tug-of-war" in which the ionic bonds of NaCl and the covalent bonds of H2O are both strained."

What other substances are polar like salt?
 
  • #4
HAYAO
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Ok, let's not list billions or infinite number of compounds but just a dozen or so. What other substances are polar and can react with water molecules like the following descriptions?

"When table salt is placed in water, the slightly electropositive sodium portion is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water molecules. At the same time, the slightly electronegative chlorine portion of NaCl is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water.
In neither case is a true bond created, but the attractions set up a "tug-of-war" in which the ionic bonds of NaCl and the covalent bonds of H2O are both strained."

What other substances are polar like salt?
Any polar compounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_polarity
 
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  • #5
russ_watters
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When salt is added to water, the water H20 molecule breaks apart.
No, it's the salt molecules that break apart, not the water molecules.
 
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  • #6
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Ok. read them.

In the house, what are the common compounds that are polar besides water/salt and alcohol? Something safe to touch, as I want to put polar molecules in my fingers and explore them.

I also read all polar compounds are IR active. And IR spectrometer are cheap. What is the cheapest one out there that you can buy and experiment?
 
  • #7
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Ok, let's not list billions or infinite number of compounds but just a dozen or so. What other substances are polar and can react with water molecules like the following descriptions?

"When table salt is placed in water, the slightly electropositive sodium portion is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water molecules. At the same time, the slightly electronegative chlorine portion of NaCl is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water.
In neither case is a true bond created, but the attractions set up a "tug-of-war" in which the ionic bonds of NaCl and the covalent bonds of H2O are both strained."

What other substances are polar like salt?
That description appears to be quoted from https://sciencing.com/happens-salt-added-water-5208174.html,
which says what you quoted:
When table salt is placed in water, the slightly electropositive sodium portion is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water molecules. At the same time, the slightly electronegative chlorine portion of NaCl is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water.

In neither case is a true bond created, but the attractions set up a "tug-of-war" in which the ionic bonds of NaCl and the covalent bonds of H2O are both strained.
but also immediately following that says:
The stronger covalent bonds of water (which is also held together generally by hydrogen bonds between water molecules) win out, and NaCl is pulled apart, with the Na+ and Cl_ ions setting loosely in place between the intact H2O molecules. NaCl is then dissolved.
That source cites this one as a reference ##-## https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/water-molecules-and-their-interaction-salt-molecules:
Water molecules and their interaction with salt molecules
1605678805243.png
This diagram shows the positive and negative parts of a water molecule. It also depicts how a charge, such as on an ion (Na or Cl, for example) can interact with a water molecule.​
At the molecular level, salt dissolves in water due to electrical charges and due to the fact that both water and salt compounds are polar, with positive and negative charges on opposite sides in the molecule. The bonds in salt compounds are called ionic because they both have an electrical charge—the chloride ion is negatively charged and the sodium ion is positively charged. Likewise, a water molecule is ionic in nature, but the bond is called covalent, with two hydrogen atoms both situating themselves with their positive charge on one side of the oxygen atom, which has a negative charge. When salt is mixed with water, the salt dissolves because the covalent bonds of water are stronger than the ionic bonds in the salt molecules.​
The positively-charged side of the water molecules are attracted to the negatively-charged chloride ions and the negatively-charged side of the water molecules are attracted to the positively-charged sodium ions. Essentially, a tug-of-war ensues with the water molecules winning the match. Water molecules pull the sodium and chloride ions apart, breaking the ionic bond that held them together. After the salt compounds are pulled apart, the sodium and chloride atoms are surrounded by water molecules, as this diagram shows. Once this happens, the salt is dissolved, resulting in a homogeneous solution.​
Although both sources say that it is the sodium and chloride ions, and not the components of the water molecule, that are pulled apart (which is something that @russ_watters succinctly pointed out), there is an important difference in the description of the ionic interactions ##-## repeating from the sciencing.com source:
When table salt is placed in water, the slightly electropositive sodium portion is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water molecules. At the same time, the slightly electronegative chlorine portion of NaCl is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water.
The second sentence is incorrect (due to a probably-inadvertent repetition of "electronegative oxygen portion" from the preceding sentence) ##-## it would not have been incorrect to say that the negatively charged chlorine portion of NaCl is attracted to the positively charged hydrogen portions of the water molecule, which is probably what the writer intended.
 
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  • #8
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That description appears to be quoted from https://sciencing.com/happens-salt-added-water-5208174.html,
which says what you quoted:

but also immediately following that says:


That source cites this one as a reference ##-## https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/water-molecules-and-their-interaction-salt-molecules:
Water molecules and their interaction with salt molecules
This diagram shows the positive and negative parts of a water molecule. It also depicts how a charge, such as on an ion (Na or Cl, for example) can interact with a water molecule.​
At the molecular level, salt dissolves in water due to electrical charges and due to the fact that both water and salt compounds are polar, with positive and negative charges on opposite sides in the molecule. The bonds in salt compounds are called ionic because they both have an electrical charge—the chloride ion is negatively charged and the sodium ion is positively charged. Likewise, a water molecule is ionic in nature, but the bond is called covalent, with two hydrogen atoms both situating themselves with their positive charge on one side of the oxygen atom, which has a negative charge. When salt is mixed with water, the salt dissolves because the covalent bonds of water are stronger than the ionic bonds in the salt molecules.​
The positively-charged side of the water molecules are attracted to the negatively-charged chloride ions and the negatively-charged side of the water molecules are attracted to the positively-charged sodium ions. Essentially, a tug-of-war ensues with the water molecules winning the match. Water molecules pull the sodium and chloride ions apart, breaking the ionic bond that held them together. After the salt compounds are pulled apart, the sodium and chloride atoms are surrounded by water molecules, as this diagram shows. Once this happens, the salt is dissolved, resulting in a homogeneous solution.​
Although both sources say that it is the sodium and chloride ions, and not the components of the water molecule, that are pulled apart (which is something that @russ_watters succinctly pointed out), there is an important difference in the description of the ionic interactions ##-## repeating from the sciencing.com source:
The second sentence is incorrect (due to a probably-inadvertent repetition of "electronegative oxygen portion" from the preceding sentence) ##-## it would not have been incorrect to say that the negatively charged chlorine portion of NaCl is attracted to the positively charged hydrogen portions of the water molecule, which is probably what the writer intended.
Thanks for the enlightening explanations.

What common household substances can act like water and salt in the polar aspect?
 
  • #9
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Thanks for the enlightening explanations.

What common household substances can act like water and salt in the polar aspect?
This list of polar-molecule substances (I underlined the ones that may be considered to be 'common household substances') is from https://sciencenotes.org/polar-and-nonpolar-molecules/:
  • Water – H2O
  • Ammonia – NH3
  • Sulfur dioxide – SO2
  • Hydrogen sulfide – H2S
  • Carbon monoxide – CO
  • Ozone – O3
  • Hydrofluoric acid
  • Ethanol – C2H6O (and other alcohols with an OH at one end)
  • Sucrose – C12H22O11 (and other sugars with OH groups)
 
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  • #10
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That description appears to be quoted from https://sciencing.com/happens-salt-added-water-5208174.html,
which says what you quoted:

but also immediately following that says:


That source cites this one as a reference ##-## https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/water-molecules-and-their-interaction-salt-molecules:
Water molecules and their interaction with salt molecules
This diagram shows the positive and negative parts of a water molecule. It also depicts how a charge, such as on an ion (Na or Cl, for example) can interact with a water molecule.​
At the molecular level, salt dissolves in water due to electrical charges and due to the fact that both water and salt compounds are polar, with positive and negative charges on opposite sides in the molecule. The bonds in salt compounds are called ionic because they both have an electrical charge—the chloride ion is negatively charged and the sodium ion is positively charged. Likewise, a water molecule is ionic in nature, but the bond is called covalent, with two hydrogen atoms both situating themselves with their positive charge on one side of the oxygen atom, which has a negative charge. When salt is mixed with water, the salt dissolves because the covalent bonds of water are stronger than the ionic bonds in the salt molecules.​
The positively-charged side of the water molecules are attracted to the negatively-charged chloride ions and the negatively-charged side of the water molecules are attracted to the positively-charged sodium ions. Essentially, a tug-of-war ensues with the water molecules winning the match. Water molecules pull the sodium and chloride ions apart, breaking the ionic bond that held them together. After the salt compounds are pulled apart, the sodium and chloride atoms are surrounded by water molecules, as this diagram shows. Once this happens, the salt is dissolved, resulting in a homogeneous solution.​
Although both sources say that it is the sodium and chloride ions, and not the components of the water molecule, that are pulled apart (which is something that @russ_watters succinctly pointed out), there is an important difference in the description of the ionic interactions ##-## repeating from the sciencing.com source:
The second sentence is incorrect (due to a probably-inadvertent repetition of "electronegative oxygen portion" from the preceding sentence) ##-## it would not have been incorrect to say that the negatively charged chlorine portion of NaCl is attracted to the positively charged hydrogen portions of the water molecule, which is probably what the writer intended.
How do you interpret it in terms of quantum chemistry? What is the quantum chemistry or wave function of pure water? And what happens to the wave function when salt is added? What text strings to look for in the references, and do you have any?
 
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How do you interpret it in terms of quantum chemistry? What is the quantum chemistry or wave function of pure water? And what happens to the wave function when salt is added? What text strings to look for in the references, and do you have any?
I think that the applicability of quantum theory to ordinary chemical reactions is something to be aware of the existence of, but that for most practical purposes in the study of basic chemistry it can be safely disregarded.

I think that it should be examined in depth only after one has acquired a competent understanding of chemical interactions at a basic classical level, e.g. learning and working with and understanding oxidation and reduction, acids, bases, and salts, why carbon has the most reactions of any element, why flourine is the most reactive, why helium is chemically inert, etc., understanding Bohr and Mendeleev before digging into L. Pauling, etc..

Also, importantly, understanding quantum theory requires understanding of very advanced mathematics, while for the most part, at the undergraduate level, study of chemistry requires mathematiccs at about the level described in this booklet: https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/Docume...on-Internships/Maths-for-Chemists-Booklet.pdf
 
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What is your expectation from this chemistry set?

I saw there were two reviews and one said their 6 yr old daughter enjoyed the experiments.

If your expectation is to learn chemistry at the high school or college level, I think you will be sadly disappointed. However, for some light self learning it may be good.

A lot of chemistry involves measurement and calculation of moles, molarity, molality, solutions, balancing equations ... I don't think this set will even approach those things.
 
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  • #15
phinds
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... IR spectrometer are cheap. What is the cheapest one out there that you can buy and experiment?
Do you not know how to use Google?
 
  • #16
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Do you not know how to use Google?
Tried that. The articles were complex. So I was thinking those who have actually acquired one and tried it. Polar compound means the electrons can move like antenna so they absorb and emit IR. This is profound thing.

Also PF is a self contained team of multidisciplinary experts who can handle LHC or even build nukes or create new physics theories that work. If we were to colonize other planets. The PF team can recreate all parts of science, and hence Earth "designated survivor". Therefore asking personal tips of cheap IR spectrometers are justified. But then I think most have access to expensive ones only. I just want to try IR spectrometers on polar compound and see if they are very dense compared to nonpolar (which doesn't have IR) but then IR also work far from thermal equilibrium? I guess it is the IR frequencies?
 
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  • #17
DrClaude
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Tried that. The articles were complex. So I was thinking those who have actually acquired one and tried it. Polar compound means the electrons can move like antenna so they absorb and emit IR. This is profound thing.

Also PF is a self contained team of multidisciplinary experts who can handle LHC or even build nukes or create new physics theories that work. If we were to colonize other planets. The PF team can recreate all parts of science, and hence Earth "designated survivor". Therefore asking personal tips of cheap IR spectrometers are justified. But then I think most have access to expensive ones only. I just want to try IR spectrometers on polar compound and see if they are very dense compared to nonpolar (which doesn't have IR) but then IR also work far from thermal equilibrium? I guess it is the IR frequencies?
There is a lot that is wrong in there. You should really pick up a chemistry textbook or dig into Openstax as @jedishrfu suggested.

All molecules absorb and emit IR radiation, whether polar or not. It is related to the vibration of molecules, i.e., the relative motion of the nuclei with respect to one another.

The only IR spectrometer I know of are laboratory equipment, and I don't think that you would be able to use one (or even prepare samples to be studied) without some guidance.
 
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  • #18
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There is a lot that is wrong in there. You should really pick up a chemistry textbook or dig into Openstax as @jedishrfu suggested.

All molecules absorb and emit IR radiation, whether polar or not. It is related to the vibration of molecules, i.e., the relative motion of the nuclei with respect to one another.
Not quite all. A molecule needs transition dipole moment around a bond, any bond.
Diatomic molecules with same atoms both side of bond cannot absorb or emit IR. Such as N2, O2 or I2.
Diatomic molecules with two different atoms can have quite small dipole moment, but the dipole moment would have to be exactly zero to prevent IR. CO has only a small dipole moment, but does absorb IR.
Now, many molecules have several slightly polar bonds whose dipole moments cancel out by symmetry. In CO2, the two C-O bonds are opposite in direction so dipole moments cancel and carbon dioxide is not polar. But the IR absorptions do not cancel, which is why CO2 is a greenhouse gas. In CH4, C-H bonds have little polarity - carbon and hydrogen are close but not exactly equal in electronegativity - and the 4 dipole moments cancel out anyway. But the IR do not cancel, and weak as the polarity is, it is enough to make methane a greenhouse gas.
To put alkane polarity into contect, while ethane also has no dipole moment due to symmetry, propane does not have such symmetry. Two hydrogens are on one side of central carbon, two methyl groups on the opposite side. Resulting in a nonzero dipole moment... of about 0,1 D. Compare dimethyl ether with the same bent geometry but two O-C bonds... dipole moment 1,3 D.

Oh, and NO, not all polar molecules are electrolytes. Dimethyl ether, acetone... fairly polar but not enough for electrolytic dissociation.
 
  • #19
symbolipoint
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jedishrfu #14 is an excellent response.
 
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  • #20
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I wrote an 'erratum' email to the writer of the sciencing.com article (omitting salutations in the quote):
Your article at https://sciencing.com/happens-salt-added-water-5208174.html article, contains the following:
When table salt is placed in water, the slightly electropositive sodium portion is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water molecules. At the same time, the slightly electronegative chlorine portion of NaCl is attracted to the slightly electronegative oxygen portion of water.
The second sentence is incorrect (due to a probably-inadvertent
repetition of "electronegative oxygen portion" from the preceding sentence) − it would not have been incorrect to say that the negatively charged chlorine portion of NaCl is attracted to the positively charged hydrogen portions of the water molecule, which is presumably what you intended.
He soon responded (again omitting salutations):
Hey, thanks for picking this up. You're correct in identifying the process that led to the mistake, but a mistake it is, and I will notify the people with access to the site to make the change. Unfortunately, Leaf Media discontinued its Sciencing arm in April, so it may be a while...
. . . just like a science guy to want to correct his mistake . . .
 

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