Looking for a Quote from The Old Testament

[Dooga Blackrazor]

I am seeking a quote, from the Old Testament, that depicts God as an opressive being. If someone can direct me to one, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Pengwuino]

Define "opressive" and how exactly can someones entire personality be depicted in a single quote? What is this, a political blog?

 

[Mk]

What about when God killed everybody on Earth except Noah and his family? That's kind of oppressive.

 

[Evo]

I am seeking a quote, from the Old Testament, that depicts God as an opressive being. If someone can direct me to one, I would greatly appreciate it.

Oh my, there are tons. I don't have a bible with me, I moved it from the bathroom and misplaced it, but for instance there is the time he got angry with some guy because he told him to destroy some city and "kill every man, woman, child and animal" because they weren't worshiping him and the guy spared some of them and God got really angry. Lots of those kinds of things in the old testament. God wasn't very nice.

 

[Dooga Blackrazor]

I'm trying to write an essay, and, in it, I will be comparing Napoleon, from George Orwell's Animal Farm, to God (specifically The Old Testament version). Furthermore, the essay deals with religious oppression; therefore, I am looking for a quote that shows God's oppressive nature or his belief in objectivity.

 

[JamesU]

You're comparing god to a talking pig?


that's kinda wierd.

 

[devious_]

Oh my, there are tons. I don't have a bible with me, I moved it from the bathroom [...]

Was that really necessary? Even if you aren't Jewish/Christian, that does not mean you should mention their holy book in such a disrespectful manner.

 

[Evo]

I'd have to find the bible and find the passages. I'll find some for you.

The Extermination of the Canaanites

When the Israelites were commissioned to take the land of Canaan, the Lord instructed them to smite completely the peoples, and to show no mercy upon them (Deuteronomy 7:1-5). Accordingly, when Israel invaded Jericho, for example, we are informed:

“And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, both young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword” (Joshua 6:21).

 

[Cyrus]

Was that really necessary? Even if you aren't Jewish/Christian, that does not mean you should mention their holy book in such a disrespectful manner.

Disrespectful manner ..... please

 

[SpaceTiger]

I am seeking a quote, from the Old Testament, that depicts God as an opressive being. If someone can direct me to one, I would greatly appreciate it.

Just start reading Genesis. Even for a slow reader, I don't think it would take more than 10 minutes to find a suitable quote. I once started reading it out of curiosity, keeping a pen with me to underline the "interesting" parts. I ran out of ink pretty quickly.

I'm trying to write an essay, and, in it, I will be comparing Napoleon, from George Orwell's Animal Farm, to God (specifically The Old Testament version).

That's interesting, I thought he was supposed to represent a Communist dictator...though I suppose said dictators play the role of a god of sorts.

 

[Jelfish]

I found the death of the first born children as the last plague in Exodus to be quite oppressive. (Exodus 11:1-10, 12:1-42)

 

[honestrosewater]

Edit: Oh, sorry, I missed the OT part the first time. The same and similar ideas are there too.

I would look for ideas that have actually caused oppression. This one might have helped to put and keep women in their place -- subordinate baby-makers for the virtuous men, who were, by the bye, literally first. I think its offense might even admitted by the rewordings of the "newer and improved" versions.

In case the link doesn't work (the first quote is from the King James Version of 1611):

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 timothy 2:11-15;&version=9;31;49;51;74;

1 Timothy 2:11-15
King James Version (KJV)

View commentary related to this passage

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.King James Version (KJV)

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A Public Domain Bible KJV at Zondervan Zondervan
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11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Footnotes:

1. 1 Timothy 2:15 Greek she
2. 1 Timothy 2:15 Or restored
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan
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11(A)A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.

12(B)But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

13(C)For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but (D)the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in (E)faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

Cross references:

1. 1 Timothy 2:11 : 1 Cor 14:34; Titus 2:5
2. 1 Timothy 2:12 : 1 Cor 14:34; Titus 2:5
3. 1 Timothy 2:13 : Gen 2:7, 22; 3:16; 1 Cor 11:8-ff
4. 1 Timothy 2:14 : Gen 3:6, 13; 2 Cor 11:3
5. 1 Timothy 2:15 : 1 Tim 1:14
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
NASB at Lockman The Lockman Foundation NASB at Zondervan Zondervan
New Living Translation (NLT)

View commentary related to this passage

11Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively. 12I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. 13For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. 14And it was the woman, not Adam, who was deceived by Satan, and sin was the result. 15But women will be saved through childbearing[a] and by continuing to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.



Footnotes:

1. 1 Timothy 2:15 Or will be saved by accepting their role as mothers, or will be saved by the birth of the Child.
New Living Translation (NLT)

Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.
New Life Version (NLV)

11Women should be quiet when they learn. They should listen to what men have to say. 12I never let women teach men or be leaders over men. They should be quiet. 13Adam was made first, then Eve. 14Adam was not fooled by Satan; it was the woman who was fooled and sinned. 15But women will be saved through the giving of birth to children if they keep on in faith and live loving and holy lives.New Life Version (NLV)

Copyright © 1969 by Christian Literature International

 

[arildno]

To wilfully appear as a burning bush is extremely oppressive (or, at least, punitive), IMO, considering the cultural context in which God chose to do so.

In such a desert country, not a single bush can be wasted (think of the berries lost for human consumption as a result of this rash act).

 

[fourier jr]

it would be cool to study the bible someday, just to see what's in there. chomsky has said it's the most genocidal book in our entire canon, but i guess there are a few good lessons, etc in there also.

 

[honestrosewater]

To wilfully appear as a burning bush is extremely oppressive (or, at least, punitive), IMO, considering the cultural context in which God chose to do so.
In such a desert country, not a single bush can be wasted (think of the berries lost for human consumption as a result of this rash act).

And another clear sign of his misogynic tendencies.


Hey, where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?

 

[tribdog]

"And following God's command the young prophet Trib had the tip of his penis severed. And God was happy." Tribdocius 3:12

 

[scott_alexsk]

Did you guys get to the part where he said he would never flood the world again? Anyways if you guys would read the
New Testiment then you would discover that God would appear much nicer. Why is that? It is because of Jesus dying on the cross, to pay for everyone sins. It is like a safety buffer, otherwise we would all go to hell if we did not scarfice a couple animals every week. And for the part of him not changing at all, life is harsh and people deserve "to reap as they sow". Though do not view the bible as telling people to be war mongers and killers. Such versus as "Leave vegance to the lord" suggest my point.
You guys really have to read the entire book before you speculate like that, otherwise you just look like idiots who pick up buzz words in the first ten pages.
-Scott

 

[Cyrus]

Yeah, idiots, sort of like not reading the origional question that talks about the old testament, and giving an anwser based on the new testament. For a religious scholar, you should at least spell testament correctly. Unless you speak some sort of Australian -G'day what are you reading there? The test-i-MATE!

 

[fargoth]

"And following God's command the young prophet Trib had the tip of his penis severed. And God was happy." Tribdocius 3:12

i don't see it as a kind of opression having the tip of your penis severed

 

[scott_alexsk]

My bad but I am sure my misspelling is a testament to the rest of the gross misspelling on this website.
-Scott

 

[honestrosewater]

Actually, as I noted, I somehow missed or forgot the Old Testament requirement the first time too -- mine was from the New Testament, and I find it extremely oppressive.

By the way, I'm talking about words in a book. If someone believes that those are the words of someone or something who they love or respect, I hope you don't think I necessarily intend any disrespect.

 

[tribdog]

I think the New Testament god is the replacement of the Old Testament god who got fired for being a dick. But he's only a temp.

 

[scott_alexsk]

I don't know why you call the bible oppressive to women. That same passage you pulled out of Peter also contains versus telling husbands to honor their wives. Besides this it does not encourage women only to be useful for show and sex, but says in Peter 3:3-4 "Do not let your adornment be merely outward-arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel- rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptable beauty of a gentle and queit spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." I do not see any problem. I mean if guys honored the wives the way they should as stated in Peter 4, then how would they be oppressed. I mean its not like women outside marriage are without the same rights, as men. Several books in the bible are about single women doing great things which include Ruth and Ester. I admit that women are not the equals in a marriage in the bible, but at least be balanced in your arguements. Really this should continue in the philosphy forum to prevent people from throwing in meaningless unsupported comments (Tribdog).
-Scott

 

[Artman]

How about the verses on the ten commandments, especially verse 5.

Exodus 20:
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the Earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

 

[honestrosewater]

I don't know why you call the bible oppressive to women.

Assuming you're talking to me, I didn't call the Bible oppressive to women. I think some verses in it are, but I don't assume that the Bible is consistent, so that it expresses only one view on a subject isn't something I would argue without actually studying the entire Bible.

Do you honestly not know why I find

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

oppressive to women? (That is 1 Timothy 2:11-15, BTW) It seems to me like mostly a matter of knowing the meaning of the words, and I don't think I'm up for a discussion where we can't start by agreeing what words normally mean -- I just don't know how to question the nomral meaning of all words at the same time. Perhaps the possible implications of Adam being created first aren't so clear, but c'mon, do you know what usurp and subjection mean? Am I misunderstanding them? If I wanted to be president of the US -- I am a woman, by the way -- and these verses were in our Constitution, would it prevent me from doing so?

I thought of verses that were oppressive in my opinion because that's what the OP asked for.

If the Bible contains other verses that seem to contradict this one, I don't see their relevance. Are the others needed to create the right context in which to interpret these verses? For example, perhaps women is used to mean married woman (not that I think married women can't be oppressed). I mean, I'll certainly consider that I didn't interpret it as it was intended. But if you say today that you hate me, the fact that you said yesterday that you loved me doesn't make me think you don't hate me.

 

[scott_alexsk]

You are right, honestrosewater. Still in the bibically ideal marriage, a man is supposed to honor his wife, Peter 4. Whatever your defination of honor is, is your interpretation. I think I am done with this thread but I would not mind discussing this topic with anyone in the philosphy forum.
-Scott

 

[honestrosewater]

You are right, honestrosewater.

(^me being speechless^)

 

[scott_alexsk]

You might want to get that framed, I usually do not yield so easily.
-Scott

 

[honestrosewater]

You might want to get that framed, I usually do not yield so easily.
-Scott

Ditto.

 

[scott_alexsk]

What is your defination of honor by the way, as in "honor thy father and thy mother." Just curious.
-Scott

 

[loseyourname]

This is from Judges:

19:22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
19:26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.
19:27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
19:28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
19:29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
19:30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.

Interpret this last part how you will. I suppose, strictly speaking, God isn't directly advocating this kind of behavior, but there should be little question that whoever was responsible for producing this literature did not have the highest opinion of or respect for women. If you think it was just some ancient Israelites, so be it. But if we're taking the bible to be the literal word of God (for the purposes of your essay, it's your decision), a red flag might be in order.

 

[Artman]

What is your defination of honor by the way, as in "honor thy father and thy mother." Just curious.
-Scott

I don't know if you were asking me or not, but I define this a couple of ways. I see it as the way your behavior is perceived by others. For example, if you see a teenage deliquent, you think, "His parents must have been lousy." His behavior reflects on them.

Secondly I see it as more direct: minding them while you are in their care.

The first type of behavior is something we can all do, even if our parents are dead. Even if we never knew them, if you are a good person, their contribution of bringing you into the world is honored.

 

[Blahness]

What about the large amounts of Sexism that God induces?

 

[NateTG]

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Might be a decent place to start.

That said, Animal Farm is usually much more strongly associated with Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.

 

[Orefa]

...and spake to the master...
...that came into thine house...
...and said unto them...

I wonder. With all the Christians in America among other places, why is it that their book translation seems stuck in this kind of unreadable, archaic English?

 

[NateTG]

I wonder. With all the Christians in America among other places, why is it that their book translation seems stuck in this kind of unreadable, archaic English?

<CYNCISM>So that people can misinterpret it liberally<CYNICISM>
There's some blather about various translations of the bible being the most this or the most that. Translations like the "Good News Bible" which are designed for accessibility are in more modern English. Of course, since these are translations, and hence imperfect, interpretation issues always color things.

 

[honestrosewater]

What is your defination of honor by the way, as in "honor thy father and thy mother." Just curious.
-Scott

I don't have a single definition of honor; it can mean different things depending on the context. Why does it matter? What if my definition of honor was rape?

Which verse are you talking about -- telling husbands to honor their wives? This was the only one I found:

1 Peter 3:7
King James Version (KJV)

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7Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.


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7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.


New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
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7(A)You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with (B)someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

Cross references:

1. 1 Peter 3:7 : Eph 5:25; Col 3:19
2. 1 Peter 3:7 : 1 Thess 4:4



New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
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New Living Translation (NLT)

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Husbands
7In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat her with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God's gift of new life. If you don't treat her as you should, your prayers will not be heard.




New Living Translation (NLT)

Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.
New Life Version (NLV)

7In the same way, husbands should understand and respect their wives, because women are weaker than men. Remember, both husband and wife are to share together the gift of life that lasts forever. If this is not done, you will find it hard to pray.

I'm not sure what exactly honor means here. Since it gives as a reason or motivation that women are weaker, perhaps it means to not abuse or take advantage of them or that they require extra patience because of their inferiority. Perhaps it means something similar to what PETA might mean if they issued a statement saying that we should honor animals.

I don't think its use here is the same as in the Commandments. I think I was taught that the honor you owe to your parents included obedience. (Consider that the punishment for being a disobedient son was stoning.) A husband disobeying his wife isn't even possible since a wife has no authority over her husband.

 

[Entropy]

On second thought, I take that back. I don't want to have anything to do with this thread.

 

[scott_alexsk]

I can't believe I didn't see this before. Dooga, or whatever your name is, you cannot even compare the God of the old testiment to Stalin, which is represented by Napolean, in Animal Farm, in any way. The problem is Stalin was a sciopath looking out for his own interests, he did not even care who he killed or supressed. He had no loyalities and neither did Napolean in the book. You can say all you want about oppression, but fundamentally both are very different. The God of the old testiment at least has loyalities to those who make a covenant with him. Stalin did not care about anyone, and if you know anything about Stalin you will know what I mean. Stalin did not descriminate, he killed anyone just for the sake of instilling terror and solidifiying his power. I have no idea how you can compare the two and how I missed this before.
-Scott

 

[Xenophon]

I got to say, this is one really awesome thread. Talk about controversial. Anyway, I don't understand how getting a quote for how God is oppressive turned into how women are oppressed (depite reading the posts). I'm going to agree with Scott and say you shouldn't compare God to Napolean, merely from personal beliefs. If you have to, well... I can see both sides of the argument. In one theory, you could say that God is Napolean, the dogs are an over aggressive church and the other animals are the common people. I personally disagree with this theory and it doesn't mention the farmers, but your teachers might be impressed and give you a good grade (even if you didn't have a quote, bit I'm sure you can find something).
-Xenophon
(Can we close this thread? It's getting pretty pointless.)

 

[Xenophon]

Im not even going to jump into the women's arguement, unless asked.