Lorentz-Abraham-Dirac equation

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Milsomonk
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Lorentz-Abraham-Dirac (LAD) equation and its implications for radiation reaction in classical electrodynamics. Participants explore concepts such as mass renormalization, the divergence of mass terms, and the physical interpretation of point particles versus extended models in the context of radiation reaction. The conversation touches on theoretical, conceptual, and historical aspects of the topic.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the mass renormalization in the LAD equation, particularly how a divergent mass term can lead to a finite mass.
  • Another participant explains that the divergence arises from modeling the electron as a classical point charge, which leads to unphysical results, and suggests regularizing the mass expression.
  • A later reply questions whether the divergence of the mass term implies that the rest mass is also divergent, seeking clarification on the source of this divergence.
  • Discussion includes the idea that point particles are inconsistent in field theory, with some participants advocating for models of extended particles to address these issues.
  • Participants mention the Landau-Lifshitz equation as an alternative approach and discuss its historical context and relevance to the LAD equation.
  • One participant references ongoing research in quantum electrodynamics (QED) and computational models for radiation reaction, indicating a broader context for the discussion.
  • Another participant highlights the significance of experimental demonstrations of phenomena like Schwinger pair production in strong electromagnetic fields.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the implications of mass renormalization and the physicality of point particles in the context of the LAD equation. There is no consensus on the resolution of these divergences, and multiple competing perspectives remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the mathematical treatment of point particles in classical electrodynamics leads to divergences that are considered unphysical. The discussion highlights the limitations of using point particle models and the need for regularization techniques, but does not resolve the underlying issues.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying classical electrodynamics, radiation reaction, quantum electrodynamics, and the historical development of these concepts in theoretical physics.

Milsomonk
Messages
100
Reaction score
17
Good morning all,
Hope everyone is staying safe and well. I am currently trying to understand the classical mechanism for radiation reaction as described by the LAD equation, and I am a little confused by the mass renormalisation that Dirac carried out.

\begin{equation}
m\frac{d u^\mu}{ds} = e F^{\mu\nu}_{Ext} u_\nu + \frac{2}{3}e^2\left( \frac{d^2 u^\mu}{ds^2} + \frac{du^\nu}{ds}\frac{du_\nu}{ds}u^\mu \right)
\end{equation}

I understand that one needs to know the value of the electromagnetic field at the position of the electron, but at this point the current diverges, so the electron is modeled as a sphere with radius a. Then the mass in the equation takes the following form:

\begin{equation}
m=m_0+\delta m
\end{equation}
\begin{equation}
\delta m \propto \frac{e^2}{a}
\end{equation}

Clearly then dm diverges as a goes to zero, but I do not understand how this makes m finite?

Aditionally, is it true to say that the small mass term dm is a contribution from the electrons own field (self interaction)?

Any illumination on the subject would be much appreciated.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
That's the whole crux here: You take into account the back reaction of the electron's own field to the electron, and since you (unphysically) model it as a classical point charge, this field diverges and also the electromagnetic field energy and thus its contribution to the mass of the electron diverges either.

The idea is to regularize this divergent expression for the mass and lump it into the finite total mass of the electron, which means you have to omit this divergent contribution ##\propto \mathrm{d} u^{\mu}/\mathrm{d} s## and lump it to the left-hand side, making the finite term ##m \mathrm{d} u^{\mu}/\mathrm{d} s## with ##m## the physical mass of the electron.

Note that at this point the trouble still is not over since the LAD equation has very unphysical properties (admitting self-acceleration as well as pre-acceleration violating causality). The way out of this is to use another approximation, known as the Landau-Lifhitz equation. That's why I recommend the treatment of the problem in Landau&Lifshitz vol. 2.

Another great paper is about the treatment of the classical pointcharge as a Born-rigid body of finite extent by Medina:

https://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0508031v3
 
Many thanks for your reply, this certainly addresses my confusion. If the mass ##m## is finite and then since ##\delta m## is divergent can we then infer that ##m_0## is also divergent? if so what is the source of this divergence?

Thanks for your help, I will certainly turn my attention to the LL equation, I just wanted to get the full historical picture. Thanks also for the paper recommendation, I shall have a read.
 
The source of these divergences (both in QED, where it's milder and in classical electrodynamics) is the abuse of mathematics, but it's also unphysical. A point particle has no place in a field theory, and the LAD equation clearly shows that it is not a consistent concept.

The reason, why the point-particle concept in classical electrodynamics works quite well is that in many cases you can neglect the radiation reaction, and the best treatment of the issue I know staying just within the point-particle picture is the book by Landau and Lisfhitz though I'd like to translate this to a purely relativistic treatment without referring to the non-relativistic interpretation first. On the other hand, indeed the technique used there is a kind of non-relativistic expansion (formally in powers of ##1/c##), as shown in the book. If I'd have to give a lecture in an advanced E&M course, I'd choose this approach (hopefully being able to give a fully relativistically covariant version, though Landau and Lifshitz (Vol. 2) finally get it with some arguments in Paragraph 76).

Of course the other strategy is to choose some model of an extended electron with Poincare stresses and all that and then discuss the limit to a point particle. This is done in Medina's paper, which clearly shows that the classical point-particle limit is unphysical and it makes it at least plausible why nobody of all the great physicists couldn't find a satisfactory answer.

Finally there's another approach used by the very practitioners of this physics, i.e., the accelerator physicists who have to deal with the motion of "particles" in the accelerators at high precision to design these accelerators. There also relativistic hydrodynamical or transport (BUU) models are used, treating the charged particles as a fluid or a plasma. Some time ago I've heard a talk by somebody simulating the motion of the charged particles with such continuum models and then asking which of the approximations of the point-particle approach best describe the results from the continuum approach. The amazing answer is that it's the Landau-Lishitz approximation of the LAD equation! Unfortunately I cannot find the reference to this interesting result right now.
 
Many thanks for your contributions, I understand the issue much better now.

In fact I am currently reading about computational models for radiation reaction and the comparisons between classical, semi-classical and QED models. I've found this article, which may even be the one you mentioned, just in case you're interested. It summarises some experimental and computational results testing the validity of different models in recent years.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6587/ab20f6
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
This is of course also a very interesting topic of ongoing research, the QED of strong fields. Here the holy grail is to demonstrate experimentally the Schwinger pair-production process, i.e., the production of electron-positron pairs due to strong electromagnetic fields, as produced by lasers.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
989
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
951
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K