Lorentz transformation of derivative and vector field

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Lorentz transformation of derivatives and vector fields within the context of quantum field theory (QFT). Participants explore the implications of active versus passive transformations, the transformation rules for derivatives and vector fields, and the mathematical properties of Lorentz transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant discusses the transformation of derivatives under Lorentz transformations, questioning why the transformation appears to require an inverse when using active transformations.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of writing indices correctly and explains how contravariant and covariant components transform under Lorentz transformations.
  • There is a clarification regarding the notation used for derivatives and how the chain rule applies in the context of active transformations, leading to the appearance of the inverse transformation.
  • Some participants express confusion about the distinction between active and passive transformations, suggesting that mathematically they are equivalent but conceptually different.
  • One participant notes that tensor fields themselves are invariant under Lorentz transformations, while their components transform according to specific rules.
  • There is a discussion about whether the transformation rules for derivatives change depending on whether an active or passive transformation is being used.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the concepts of active and passive transformations, and there is no consensus on the implications of these transformations for derivatives and vector fields. Some participants agree on the mathematical properties, while others remain uncertain about the conceptual distinctions.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for clarity in notation and the implications of using active versus passive transformations, but the discussion does not resolve all uncertainties regarding these concepts.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and researchers in quantum field theory, particularly those interested in the mathematical foundations of Lorentz transformations and their applications to vector fields and derivatives.

doggydan42
Messages
169
Reaction score
18
TL;DR
Why is the inverse transformation used for derivative and the position, while for a vector field the normal transformation is used?
I'm currently watching lecture videos on QFT by David Tong. He is going over lorentz invariance and classical field theory. In his lecture notes he has,

$$(\partial_\mu\phi)(x) \rightarrow (\Lambda^{-1})^\nu_\mu(\partial_\nu \phi)(y)$$, where ##y = \Lambda^{-1}x##.

He mentions he uses active transformation. So I understand the inverse in the y. For the derivative I tried

$$\partial'_\mu \phi=(\partial_\nu \phi )\partial'_\mu (x^\nu)$$

So then I need to show that ##\partial'_\mu (x^\nu) = (\Lambda^{-1})^\nu_\mu##.
$$\partial'_\mu (x^\nu)=\partial'_\mu (\Lambda^\nu_\sigma x'^\sigma) = \Lambda^\nu_\sigma \delta^\sigma_\mu = \Lambda^\nu_\mu$$.
This is how I thought to proceed, but clearly there should be a ##\Lambda^{-1}##, but I thought it would be that ##x' = \Lambda^{-1} x##. Why is it that although it is an active transformation ##x' = \Lambda x## instead? Did I make a mistake somewhere else? And if it is that the transformation should not be the inverse, why is it that the x transforms to y, which has the inverse?

Also, for a vector field he makes the claim that $$A^\mu \rightarrow A'^\mu = \Lambda^\mu_\nu A_\nu(\Lambda^{-1}x)$$ Why is it not the inverse transformation on the A but an inverse on x?

Thank you in advance.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
First of all it is utmost important to write all indices not only in strict vertical order (defining whether an index denotes a co- or a contravariant tensor component) but also in strict horizontal order.

The logic is as follows: The contravariant time-space four vector components transform under Lorentz transformations as
$$x^{\prime \mu} = {\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\nu} x^{\nu}.$$
The same holds for ##\mathrm{d} x^{\nu}## of course.

The Lorentz transformation obeys
$$\eta_{\mu \nu} {\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} {\Lambda^{\nu}}_{\sigma}=\eta_{\rho \sigma}$$
with ##\eta_{\mu \nu}=\mathrm{diag}(1,-1,-1,-1)## (in the west-coast convention).

This can be used to derive an important property of the inverse of the Lorentz transformation. Multiplying the above equation with ##{(\Lambda^{-1})^{\sigma}}_{\alpha}## gives
$$\eta_{\mu \alpha} {\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} = \eta_{\rho \sigma} {(\Lambda^{-1})^{\sigma}}_{\alpha},$$
and now this equation with ##\eta^{\rho \beta}##
$$\eta_{\mu \alpha} \eta^{\rho \beta} {\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} ={(\Lambda^{-1})^{\beta}}_{\alpha}. \qquad (1)$$

Covariant vector components transform as
$$\mathrm{d} x_{\mu}' = \eta_{\mu \rho} \mathrm{d} x^{\prime \rho} = \eta_{\mu \rho} {\Lambda^{\rho}}_{\nu} \mathrm{d} x^{\nu} = \eta_{\mu \rho} \eta^{\nu \sigma} {\Lambda^{\rho}}_{\nu} \mathrm{d} x_{\sigma} \stackrel{(1)}{=} {(\Lambda^{-1})^{\rho}}_{\mu} \mathrm{d} x_{\rho}.$$
It's also easy to see that a partial derivative with respect to ##x^{\mu}## leads to a covariant index.

To see this take a vector field which by definition transforms as
$$A^{\prime \mu}(x')={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} A^{\rho}(x).$$
For the derivative follows
$$\frac{\partial}{\partial x^{\prime \nu}} A^{\prime \mu}(x') = {\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} \frac{\partial x^{\sigma}}{\partial x^{\prime \nu}} \frac{\partial}{\partial x^{\sigma}} A^{\rho}(x) ={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} {(\Lambda^{-1})^{\sigma}}_{\nu} \frac{\partial}{\partial x^{\sigma}} A^{\rho}(x),$$
which indeed is precisely the transformation rule for covariant tensor components. Thus to get a nice mnemonic notation you define
$$\partial_{\mu} = \frac{\partial}{\partial x^{\mu}}$$
with a lower, i.e., covariant, index.
 
vanhees71 said:
First of all it is utmost important to write all indices not only in strict vertical order (defining whether an index denotes a co- or a contravariant tensor component) but also in strict horizontal order.

Sorry for not writing them out in horizontal order, I wasn't aware I could do that with latex.

I looked at a another lecture notes, and it seems like the notation is ##(\partial_\nu \phi)(y) = \partial'_\nu \phi(y)##, where ##y = \Lambda^{-1}x## because it is an active transformation.

So I see now where the ##\Lambda^{-1}## comes from, because the derivatives themselves are not transformed, just rewritten using chain rule, which pulls out a ##\Lambda^{-1}##. Do the derivatives not transform because an active transform is being used? Why would the derivatives not transform if the coordinates do?

vanhees71 said:
For the derivative follows$$\frac{\partial}{\partial x^{\prime \nu}} A^{\prime \mu}(x') = {\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} \frac{\partial x^{\sigma}}{\partial x^{\prime \nu}} \frac{\partial}{\partial x^{\sigma}} A^{\rho}(x) ={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} {(\Lambda^{-1})^{\sigma}}_{\nu} \frac{\partial}{\partial x^{\sigma}} A^{\rho}(x)$$

, which indeed is precisely the transformation rule for covariant tensor components.
Does that transformation rule change if an active transformation is being used instead of a passive one?
 
Last edited:
I never understood the distinction between active and passive transformations. Mathematically it boils down to interchanging the transformation in one interpretation by its inverse in the other ;-)).

The mathematics is clear and simple. The vector-field components transform as given in my previous posting
$$A^{\prime \mu}(x')={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} A^{\rho}(x)={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} A^{\rho}(\hat{\Lambda}^{-1}x').$$
Analogously this holds true for tensor fields of arbitrary rank (with a transformation matrix for each index of the field components).

The tensor fields themselves are invariant under Lorentz transformations.
 
vanhees71 said:
The mathematics is clear and simple. The vector-field components transform as given in my previous posting
$$A^{\prime \mu}(x')={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} A^{\rho}(x)={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} A^{\rho}(\hat{\Lambda}^{-1}x').$$
Analogously this holds true for tensor fields of arbitrary rank (with a transformation matrix for each index of the field components).

The tensor fields themselves are invariant under Lorentz transformations.

I think I understand it a bit better now. Thank you!
 
vanhees71 said:
I never understood the distinction between active and passive transformations. Mathematically it boils down to interchanging the transformation in one interpretation by its inverse in the other ;-)).

The mathematics is clear and simple. The vector-field components transform as given in my previous posting
$$A^{\prime \mu}(x')={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} A^{\rho}(x)={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} A^{\rho}(\hat{\Lambda}^{-1}x').$$
Analogously this holds true for tensor fields of arbitrary rank (with a transformation matrix for each index of the field components).

The tensor fields themselves are invariant under Lorentz transformations.
A passive transformation is a diffeomorphism in the coordinate space, and an active transformation is a diffeomorphism on the manifold.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71 and weirdoguy
Which is by definition (at least locally) equivalent.
 
vanhees71 said:
Which is by definition (at least locally) equivalent.

So locally, the transformation of a vector field would be the same passive/active?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
1K
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K