Lorentz Transformation: Writing in Different Forms

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical formulation of the Lorentz transformation, specifically its representation in different forms using Lie algebra and group theory. Participants explore the implications of these representations and their relationship to physical concepts such as boosts and rotations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion regarding the expression for the Lorentz transformation, particularly the form involving the exponential of the Lie algebra elements.
  • One participant suggests that the first expression represents the most general group element, while the second expression appears to specify a particular element from the algebra.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of the matrices \( M_{\rho\sigma} \) and whether they represent matrices or elements of a matrix, with a question about the inclusion of a time parameter in the first expression.
  • Another participant clarifies that \( M_{10} \) represents a Lorentz boost in the x-direction and distinguishes between the roles of angles and rapidity in the context of boosts.
  • One participant reiterates the relationship between the Lie algebra and the Lie group, emphasizing that the group elements depend on parameters defining rotation or rapidity rather than spacetime coordinates.
  • There is a suggestion that confusion may arise from mixing the fundamental representation of the Lorentz transformation with more general representations that do not involve spacetime coordinates.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of the mathematical expressions related to the Lorentz transformation. There is no clear consensus, as some participants agree on certain aspects while others raise questions and challenges regarding the formulations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves complex mathematical concepts, including the structure of Lie algebras and their exponentiation to form Lie groups. The relationship between different representations and their dependence on specific parameters is also highlighted.

befj0001
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I don't understand why we can write the elements of the lorentransformation in the form

## {\Lambda}^{\mu}\:_{\nu} = [exp(-\frac{i}{2}{\omega}^{\rho\sigma}M_{\rho\sigma})]^{\mu}\:_{\nu} ##

I know that we can write it in the form

## {\Lambda} = exp(t\Theta) ##

where
## \Theta ##
are elements of the Lie algebra
 
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Well, the contraction of omega with M indicates a linear combination of M's. These M's span the algebra. So the group element you write there is general. Your second expression seems like you pick one particular element from the algebra, Theta, and multiply it with one parameter t.

So your first expression is just the most general group element you can write when the M's span your algebra. In your second expression you apparently pick one particular M, call it Theta, and you pick one particular omega, and call it t.

Maybe this comparison helps: I can always choose coordinates in R3 such that a vector is written as

V = (0,0,c)

i.e. has only a component along the z-axis, which I call c. But in general such a vector has components

V= (a,b,c).
 
haushofer said:
Well, the contraction of omega with M indicates a linear combination of M's. These M's span the algebra. So the group element you write there is general. Your second expression seems like you pick one particular element from the algebra, Theta, and multiply it with a parameter t.

So your first expression is just the most general group element you can write when the M's span your algebra.

ok, so the ## M_{\rho\sigma} ## represents a matrix and not an element of the matrix? i.e., ## M_{10} ## is a matrix? But where is the time parameter in the first expression?
 
befj0001 said:
I don't understand why we can write the elements of the lorentransformation in the form

## {\Lambda}^{\mu}\:_{\nu} = [exp(-\frac{i}{2}{\omega}^{\rho\sigma}M_{\rho\sigma})]^{\mu}\:_{\nu} ##
If the Lie algebra \mathcal{L}(G) can be exponentiated to give the Lie group G, then
G = e^{\mathcal{L}(G)} .
So,
\mathcal{L}(SO(1,3)) = - \frac{i}{2} \omega^{\mu\nu}M_{\mu\nu} \equiv X .

I know that we can write it in the form

## {\Lambda} = exp(t\Theta) ##

where
## \Theta ##
are elements of the Lie algebra
e^{t \mathcal{L}(G)} \equiv e^{tX} is a one-parameter subgroup of G.
 
Maybe this helps: the group elements only depend on parameters which define the angle of rotation or rapidity. They don't depend on spacetime coordinates (!). In the fundamental representation the group elements act on the spacetime coordinates, giving the familiar Lorentz transformations of the spacetime coordinates.

Maybe you're confusing the fundamental representation on the coordinates with more general representations. E.g., a Lorentz transfo on a vector field or spinor does not contain spacetime coordinates.
 

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