Lowering Indices: Tensor Calculus Basics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of tensor calculus in the context of low-speed fluid dynamics, particularly focusing on the derivation of the energy-momentum tensor and the assumptions made regarding pressure and metric tensors. Participants explore the implications of these assumptions and the conditions under which certain approximations hold.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a derivation of the energy-momentum tensor under the assumption of zero pressure and low speeds, questioning its validity.
  • Another participant challenges the assumption of zero pressure, asking what justifies this condition and how it affects the derivation.
  • Concerns are raised about the substitution of terms in the energy-momentum tensor, particularly regarding the relationship between different components of the four-velocity.
  • Some participants discuss the weak field limit of gravity and its implications for the metric tensor, questioning the assumption that the metric tensor approximates the Minkowski metric.
  • A participant mentions that kinetic energy is much less than rest mass energy in certain contexts, but this is not universally applicable, prompting further inquiry into the specific case being discussed.
  • Clarifications are sought regarding the choice of frame in the context of low-speed approximations and the implications for the analysis being conducted.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the assumptions made in the derivation, particularly regarding pressure and the validity of certain approximations. There is no consensus on the justification for these assumptions, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the assumptions made, such as the dependence on the choice of frame and the conditions under which certain terms can be neglected. The discussion remains open-ended with unresolved mathematical steps and conditions.

unscientific
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At low speeds and assuming pressure ##P=0##,
[tex]T^{\alpha \beta} = \rho U^\alpha U^\beta[/tex]
[tex]g_{\alpha \mu} g_{\gamma \beta} T^{\alpha \beta} = \rho g_{\alpha \mu} g_{\gamma \beta} U^\alpha U^\beta[/tex]
[tex]T_{\gamma \mu} = \rho U_\mu U^\beta g_{\gamma \beta}[/tex]

Setting ##\gamma = \mu = 0##:

[tex]T_{00} = \rho U_0 U^\beta g_{0 \beta}[/tex]

Since ##g_{0 \beta} \backsimeq \eta_{0 \beta} ## and the only non-zero term is ##\eta_{00} = -1##, combined with ##U_\alpha U^\alpha = -c^2##:

[tex]T_{00} = \rho U_0 U^0 g_{00} = \rho c^2[/tex]

I'm still learning tensor calculus, would that be considered a proper derivation?
Also, is ##g_{ij} \backsimeq \eta_{ij}## the reason why ##T_{ij} \backsimeq 0##?
 
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unscientific said:
would that be considered a proper derivation?

It's correct as far as it goes, but you left out two things.

First: why do you assume ##P = 0##? The place you got this from only said a time-independent source at low speeds; it didn't say zero pressure. What eliminates the pressure terms?

Second: how do you know that ##U_0 U^0 = U_{\alpha} U^{\alpha}## for this case (which is what let's you substitute ##- c^2## for ##U_0 U^0##)? In general, ##U_{\alpha} U^{\alpha} = U_0 U^0 + U_1 U^1 + U_2 U^2 + U_3 U^3##. What eliminates the other three terms?

unscientific said:
is ##g_{ij} \backsimeq \eta_{ij}## the reason why ##T_{ij} \backsimeq 0##?

No. The correct reason is connected to the questions I asked above.
 
PeterDonis said:
It's correct as far as it goes, but you left out two things.

First: why do you assume ##P = 0##? The place you got this from only said a time-independent source at low speeds; it didn't say zero pressure. What eliminates the pressure terms?

Second: how do you know that ##U_0 U^0 = U_{\alpha} U^{\alpha}## for this case (which is what let's you substitute ##- c^2## for ##U_0 U^0##)? In general, ##U_{\alpha} U^{\alpha} = U_0 U^0 + U_1 U^1 + U_2 U^2 + U_3 U^3##. What eliminates the other three terms?
No. The correct reason is connected to the questions I asked above.

Kinetic energy ##\propto k_BT## is much less than rest mass energy

[tex]P \backsimeq n k_B T << nMc^2 \backsimeq \rho c^2[/tex]
So ##P \backsimeq 0##.

##U_\alpha U^\alpha = -c^2## because of invariance when you evalue ##U = (c,0)## in the rest frame.
 
I also have a question, why do you take [itex]g_{\mu \nu} \approx \eta_{\mu \nu}[/itex]?
 
ChrisVer said:
I also have a question, why do you take [itex]g_{\mu \nu} \approx \eta_{\mu \nu}[/itex]?

In the weak field limit of gravity, ## g_{\mu \nu} = \eta_{\mu \nu} + h_{\mu \nu} ## where ##|h_{\mu \nu} << 1##.
 
aha, so you take the weak field limit...because I didn't see that in written in the text you attached. I would just say that in the low speed limit:
[itex]U^a = \begin{pmatrix} c \\ u_x \\ u_y \\ u_z \end{pmatrix} \approx c \begin{pmatrix} 1 \\ 0 \\ 0 \\ 0 \end{pmatrix}[/itex]
and this gives immediately the components of [itex]T^{ab}[/itex]
 
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unscientific said:
Kinetic energy ##\propto k_BT## is much less than rest mass energy

Not in all cases. I was asking what makes it true in this case.

unscientific said:
##U_\alpha U^\alpha = -c^2## because of invariance

I wasn't asking why ##U_\alpha U^\alpha = -c^2##. I was asking why ##U_0 U^0 = - c^2##, i.e., why ##U_0 U^0 = U_\alpha U^\alpha##. I think ChrisVer gave the answer to that, though.

ChrisVer said:
I would just say that in the low speed limit

Small nitpick: in the low speed limit, and in the rest frame of the fluid...
 
PeterDonis said:
Small nitpick: in the low speed limit, and in the rest frame of the fluid...

wouldn't you agree that in the low speed limit this approximation holds (I just used [itex]u_i/c \approx 0[/itex])? The thing is that the text says "taking the low speed limit" (together with time independence of the source)
 
ChrisVer said:
wouldn't you agree that in the low speed limit this approximation holds

Sure, but "low speed" requires a choice of frame; "speed" is relative. I was only pointing out that the implicit choice of frame being made is the rest frame of the fluid. I said it was a small nitpick. :wink:
 

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