Lying politicians

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  • #51
Nicool003
This isn't a rant? Calm down, and if you can't stay calm, take up fishing or something.
Ha. That was no rant. It's called a well thought out and written post. And I hate fish.




It isn't my fault you are wrong. Very often wrong, if you think I 'support' any politician.

I am not wrong. You have not proven me wrong yet so sorry if you think you did. And you definetly support clinton. Read your posts.
 
  • #52
Ganshauk
Once again, class.

Its not what they say, but what they do.

More importantly, how has it affected you? Personally, I mean.
 
  • #53
Zero
Originally posted by Ganshauk
Once again, class.

Its not what they say, but what they do.

More importantly, how has it affected you? Personally, I mean.
By your definition, Clinton was one of your better moderate Republican presidents. And, of course, much of Bush's policy-making that was blasted by the 'left' was simply continuation of Clinton policy.
 
  • #54
FZ+
1,561
3
Originally posted by Nicool003
I am not wrong. You have not proven me wrong yet so sorry if you think you did. And you definetly support clinton. Read your posts.
I think you make a mistake. Zero prefers Clinton over Bush. I agree with him. I would prefer most presidents over Bush. It's relative, really.
 
  • #55
Zero
Originally posted by FZ+
I think you make a mistake. Zero prefers Clinton over Bush. I agree with him. I would prefer most presidents over Bush. It's relative, really.
Oh yeah, in the same way that I prefer Bush to a hot poker in the eye...it is all relative.
 
  • #56
kat
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0
Originally posted by kyleb
well i have been reading along but that bit about Carter is what struck me off guard, it seemed like you were saying that what Bush is doing now is justfied somehow by what Carter did back then.
no, I only pointed out that I had no recollection of Carter lying and that, that did not mean he did not, only that I could not recall. Other then Carter I can't think of a president I don't recall lying.
In fact, other then Carter, I can't recall a president that I could not give a long list of lies and shadey dealings.
Therefor, this is not a partisan issue.
If it is not a partisan issue then..argueing it in a partisan manner prevents resolution.
 
  • #57
Nicool003
Clinton was one of your better moderate Republican presidents
Zero either you know nothing about clinton and defend him blindly or you missed that he was a big time DEMOCRAT
 
  • #58
kyleb
Nicool003, either know nothing about Clinton and accept labeling blindly or you missed that he acted like a republican.
 
  • #59
Zero
Originally posted by Nicool003
Zero either you know nothing about clinton and defend him blindly or you missed that he was a big time DEMOCRAT
This is why I suggested in another thread to avoid generalizations. Policy-wise, Clinton was moderate leaning towards conservative in most cases. The comfortable lie is to believe that moderates are liberals, isn't it? That way, the conservative extremists can claim to be moderate themselves.
 
  • #60
russ_watters
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Originally posted by kyleb
Nicool003, either know nothing about Clinton and accept labeling blindly or you missed that he acted like a republican.
Yeah, most republicans want to cut the military, increase spending on social programs, and ignore foreign policy... [?]

If you guys think that Clinton was conservative, that pegs you WAAAAY left on the political spectrum.
 
  • #61
FZ+
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Yeah, and most liberals studiously avoid using the word liberal, concentrate on the economy, maximise exploitation of the weak and poor....
If you think Clinton was liberal, that pegs you waaaayy right of the spectrum. :wink:
 
  • #62
Nicool003
Nicool003, either know nothing about Clinton and accept labeling blindly or you missed that he acted like a republican.

How did he act republican? If he acted republican the democrats wouldn't have made him their candidate first off. Second off Kyleb since when did you pay attention? Most of your posts are either insulting, or simple yes or no's or "i'm not sure" or
i think your wrong. Back to clinton. He and Gore are definetly democrat in nature. Oh and both are liars. For instance Clinton said if there was no age limit he would get in the trenches and fight with our troops. What bull crap the wimp ran to canada to escape the draft! Oh and like zero started the topic with; Gores inventing the internet was SOOOO pitiful. Also, they both stood for democratic things when they ran for president. Especially Gore. And before I read russ's post I was thinking the same thing.


Yeah, most republicans want to cut the military, increase spending on social programs, and ignore foreign policy...
I mean come on Bill clinton totally broke down military! Yeah sure you see President Bush doing that.... Only democrats do such things.
 
  • #63
Zero
Russ, you'll note I said the Clinton was MODERATE...the middle does exist, no matter how much some radicals on the Right like to pretend otherwise. Overall, Clinton was moderate, not liberal at all. And, heck, the military NEEDS to be cut, there's far and away too much pork involved. Of course, the liars in teh Republican party always tell teh 'small government' lie, while lining the pockets of contributors, and starting new and improved wasteful programs.

Oh, and Gore was instrumental in the creation of the Internet(along with Newt Gingrich), and NEVER claimed to have invented it...another Republican lie.
 
  • #64
Zero
Originally posted by Nicool003




I mean come on Bill clinton totally broke down military! Yeah sure you see President Bush doing that.... Only democrats do such things.
The LIE is that Bush supports the military...he supports tons of pork, but he also supports cutting VA benefits, reducing wage increases, etc.
 
  • #65
damgo
OK, a couple points: first, all of our recent presidents have avoided military service in one way or another. Clinton slipped out of the draft, and Bush's dad got a nice cushy Texas Air National Guard appointment thousands of miles from Nam. Decorated veterans such as McCain lost out.

Second, Clinton was a "New Democrat." This group, represented by the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC), is pretty damn centrist compared to old Democrats -- this is what I think Zero and others are referring to (right?). As the country becomes more conservative, it is becoming more and more the face of the Democratic Party.

Third, it's not fair to blame Clinton for "gutting" the military. He did commission the Bottom-Up Review, to determine how the military should be reorganized in light of the end of the Cold War. This led to two major recommendations: 1) a higher-tech, lighter, more mobile military for regional conflicts, and 2) cutting the number of heavy Army divisions and bases, esp those in Europe.

IMNSHO this only makes sense: it would be foolish not to seriously alter military spending in light of such a huge event as the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the USSR. The more mobile, rapidly-deployable forces emphasized since then have played a very important role in recent conflicts.

It's interesting to note that Rumsfeld's original big goal as Defense Secretary was to make the military even more light and flexible; a policy that brought him into conflict with many military elites -- just as it did Clinton.
 
  • #66
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Zero
Russ, you'll note I said the Clinton was MODERATE....
Oh, did you. Maybe I misread. I thought you said:
Clinton was moderate leaning towards conservative in most cases.
"...leaning towards conservative in most cases" is either bad grammar or a statement that Clinton was a moderate conservative.
Oh, and Gore was instrumental in the creation of the Internet(along with Newt Gingrich), and NEVER claimed to have invented it...another Republican lie.
Oh, c'mon Zero. As the mod of a forum on the internet, I know you must know a little about the history of the Internet. What specifically did Gore do? Did he fund CERN's invention of the World Wide Web? Did he fund Mosaic? Where was he in 1969 when the ARPANET went online? Gore supported ONE bill. I'm sure you know what that bill did. I know you know better than this. If not, HEREis a great little timeline. Notice how much treatment Gore's bill gets. Also notice before Gore's bill there were already more than 1,000,000 hosts online.
reducing wage increases, etc.
Zero, the military doesn't have scheduled pay scale increases. So you can't reduce them. Under Bush there have been 2 increases in 2 years. That quite simply didn't happen during Clinton's term.
 
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  • #67
Zero
Originally posted by russ_watters
Zero, the military doesn't have scheduled pay scale increases. So you can't reduce them. Under Bush there have been 2 increases in 2 years. That quite simply didn't happen during Clinton's term.
I'll get back to the 'Internet thingy' later...Daily Howler has much to say on the subject...


Military pay raises? Well, I should have said 'cost of living increases', which we got under Clinton, and the rate of which Bush voted to lower.
 
  • #68
Nicool003
The LIE is that Bush supports the military...he supports tons of pork, but he also supports cutting VA benefits, reducing wage increases, etc.
Hahaha!!!!!! That is so funny! Are you implying clinton ACTUALLY SUPPORTED THE MILITARY?!?!?! Bush supports it very much beliebve it or not he is repairing the damage your chimpanzee of a president did. And how did Gore even help with the internet? Give me proof that doesn't come from dirty gore or clinton hands. And I will have to make sure the source you give me is not democratic before I read it.
 
  • #69
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Nicool003
And how did Gore even help with the internet? Give me proof that doesn't come from dirty gore or clinton hands. And I will have to make sure the source you give me is not democratic before I read it.
Gore's law funded internet access for schools and infrastructure (maybe a little research too, not sure). Its nice but it has nothing at all to do with the internet's creation. The enabling technologies happened over 40 years and in multiple countries.
 
  • #70
Zero
Originally posted by Nicool003
And I will have to make sure the source you give me is not democratic before I read it.
You accept lies or nothing, huh?
 
  • #71
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Zero
You accept lies or nothing, huh?
Lies, huh? Speaking of which, you never did get back to me on that Gore & the internet thing...

BTW, I don't accuse people of lying unless they cling to their mistakes (as per the thread on the subject). I believe you are just very often mistaken.
 
  • #72
schwarzchildradius
OK hey, our national energy policy was dictated (literally) by Harken energy, read it in the newspaper - the white house attempted to intervene in a court investigation about it, siting national security. I can't think of a single thing 43 has proposed that was NOT a lie, in some form or another. The right-wing press is a tremendous echo chamber for whatever national sellout the administration is unloading that day.

Despite public delusion, 43 was indeed absent without leave from his duty in the air national guard for a period of about 2 years. Yeah, it's expected to pump up the rhetoric during an election year, and then turn to your real buddies the polluters and hand them most of the national treasure, if you're a Bush.

The wierdest and maybe most desparate was the blatant fabrication of official Iraqi documents designed to lead the UN to believe that Iraq was persuing Nuclear weapons. The IAEA took one look and within a week rejected them as fakes and frauds.

Finally, how is Democracy to be spread by leaders who do not understand its first Principles?
 
  • #73
Zero
Originally posted by russ_watters
Lies, huh? Speaking of which, you never did get back to me on that Gore & the internet thing...

BTW, I don't accuse people of lying unless they cling to their mistakes (as per the thread on the subject). I believe you are just very often mistaken.
Alias, you already told me you wouldn't believe anything I said on teh subject, so why bother?

For the record, here is what Gore actually said:

"Well, I will be offering - I'll be offering my vision when my campaign begins. And it will be comprehensive and sweeping. And I hope that it will be compelling enough to draw people toward it. I feel that it will be.
But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I've traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.

During a quarter century of public service, including most of it long before I came into my current job, I have worked to try to improve the quality of life in our country and in our world. And what I've seen during that experience is an emerging future that's very exciting, about which I'm very optimistic, and toward which I want to lead."

H
ere Gore appears to have been caught off guard a bit by the question, rambling a bit as he seeks to vocalize a responsive answer(but he is clearer than Bush has often been, and been forgiven for). He emphasizes his work during his years in the Congress ,as well as his leadership on various issues. He mentions "initiative" three times; clearly his overall message is that he worked hard on a number of issues, and took a leadership position . The overall thrust is that Gore feels he has been instrumental in getting legislation pushed through that helped move the Internet to what it is today, not that he 'invented the Internet'.
 
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  • #74
Zero
Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
OK hey, our national energy policy was dictated (literally) by Harken energy, read it in the newspaper - the white house attempted to intervene in a court investigation about it, siting national security. I can't think of a single thing 43 has proposed that was NOT a lie, in some form or another. The right-wing press is a tremendous echo chamber for whatever national sellout the administration is unloading that day.

Despite public delusion, 43 was indeed absent without leave from his duty in the air national guard for a period of about 2 years. Yeah, it's expected to pump up the rhetoric during an election year, and then turn to your real buddies the polluters and hand them most of the national treasure, if you're a Bush.

The wierdest and maybe most desparate was the blatant fabrication of official Iraqi documents designed to lead the UN to believe that Iraq was persuing Nuclear weapons. The IAEA took one look and within a week rejected them as fakes and frauds.

Finally, how is Democracy to be spread by leaders who do not understand its first Principles?

The experts say one thing, the administration says another...and, as with their economic fiasco, if someone doesn't follow their lies, they are replaced.
 
  • #75
russ_watters
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Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
OK hey, our national energy policy was dictated (literally) by Harken energy, read it in the newspaper - the white house attempted to intervene in a court investigation about it, siting national security.
That is not new, nor is it illegal.
Here Gore appears to have been caught off guard a bit by the question, rambling a bit as he seeks to vocalize a responsive answer(but he is clearer than Bush has often been, and been forgiven for). He emphasizes his work during his years in the Congress ,as well as his leadership on various issues. He mentions "initiative" three times; clearly his overall message is that he worked hard on a number of issues, and took a leadership position . The overall thrust is that Gore feels he has been instrumental in getting legislation pushed through that helped move the Internet to what it is today, not that he 'invented the Internet'.
Yes. I agree completely with your updated assessment.
 

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