Magnetic Attraction: Is Bar Magnet Symmetrical?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the symmetry of magnetic attraction in bar magnets, particularly in relation to compass needles. Participants explore whether one pole of a bar magnet is more likely to attract than the other and how this relates to the behavior of compass needles in Earth's magnetic field.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if a bar magnet is symmetrically magnetic, suggesting that both poles should attract equally.
  • Another participant clarifies that while commercial bar magnets may have similar strength at both poles, the definition of "pole" is important, as it refers to where magnetic field lines emerge.
  • A participant explains that a compass needle aligns with the external magnetic field rather than being attracted equally to both poles of a magnet.
  • There is a discussion about the Earth's magnetic field not being uniform and how this affects the compass needle's behavior, particularly near the poles where the field lines converge.
  • One participant mentions that magnets do not need to be symmetric in field strength but must have the same net field, noting that the shape of the poles can affect field concentration.
  • Concerns are raised about the relevance of gravitational effects on compass needles, with suggestions that they are designed to minimize gravity's impact.
  • Another participant argues that the convergence of field lines near the North Pole is not significant enough to affect the length of a compass needle meaningfully.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the symmetry of magnetic attraction in bar magnets and the implications for compass needle behavior. There is no consensus on whether one pole is more attractive than the other or the significance of field line convergence.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of definitions and the non-uniform nature of magnetic fields, which may affect their arguments. The discussion also touches on the assumptions regarding the effects of gravity on compass needles.

thetexan
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If I have a bar magnet is it correct to assume that the bar is symmetrically magnetic? In other words is one pole just as likely to attract as the other end?

Here's where I'm going with this. A compass needle lines up north and south. Is this because one end is attracted to north AND the other end is attracted to south?

Then, if that's true is the end that is attracted to north MORE attracted to the north magnetic pole than the end that is attracted to south is to the south magnetic pole because we in the US are closer to the North Pole?

I know the needle will align with the flux lines but does proximity to one closer pole cause a greater pull than the farther pole.

It seems the there are two forces acting on a compass needle...the magnetic force and gravity. If the magnetic force is greater on one end than the other then there would be a center of magnetic force...the point where the force is balanced. Likewise there is a center of gravity for the needle which should be near the center of the needle. If these two do not coincide then there would be a torque moment which would account for magnetic compass dip, acceleration and turning errors on an airplane.

This is how I think it works...at least to the best I can understand it. Is any of this correct?

tex
 
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thetexan said:
If I have a bar magnet is it correct to assume that the bar is symmetrically magnetic? In other words is one pole just as likely to attract as the other end?
Attract what?
Commercial bar magnets are usually built so that both poles have the same strength... but define "pole". The "north pole" is just the face where magnetic field lines mostly emerge from.

... however, this is not what you are talking about when it comes to compass needles below...

Here's where I'm going with this. A compass needle lines up north and south. Is this because one end is attracted to north AND the other end is attracted to south?
No - it is because the magnetic field of the compass needle aligns with the external magnetic field.

There is a model which treats magnetic poles separately - for convenience - so, in that sense, the closer two poles are to each other the stronger their attraction/repulsion. In this model, the Earth's north pole attracts the north-seeking pole of the needle, and repells the south-seeking pole. Similarly the Earth's south pole attracts the south-seeking pole of the needle and repells the north seeking pole of the needle.

I know the needle will align with the flux lines but does proximity to one closer pole cause a greater pull than the farther pole.
The Earth's magnetic field is not parallel to the surface. The field lines point mostly down near the poles, so the effect on a compass needle is weaker there.
I suspect this is the main thing you are interested in.

The Earth's magnetic field is not uniform across the surface either, and compass needles are often finely balanced so they will register small changes in the momentum of the aircraft (say) which may not register on other instruments. This would account for errors due to various accelerations.
 
Magnets do not have to be symmetric in field strength at the two poles, but they do have to have the same net field. In other words if one pole is pointed and the other is bulbous the pointy end will concentrate the field while the field lines will be more spread out on the bulbous end.

However for a bar magnet where the two ends look about the same you can take the field to be

RE compass points, they are suspended on a needle at their CG and you are supposed to hold the compass flat. This is intended to make gravity irrelevant. Like all magnets they have a north and south poles. And they line with the field line
 
Regarding the North Pole being more or less attractive, it is true the field lines do converge near the poles. However I don't think that there is enough convergence on the scale of the length of a compass needle to be worth considering.
 

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