Magnetic field cannot accelerate a rest charged particle?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the behavior of charged particles, specifically electrons, in the presence of a magnetic field. Participants explore the implications of magnetic forces on electrons in a metal, questioning why electrons do not move despite the alignment of their spins with the magnetic field. The conversation touches on concepts of electromagnetic force, torque, and the nature of magnetic fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that when a strong magnet approaches a piece of metal, the electron spins align with the magnetic field, but the electrons do not move, raising questions about charge density and electric potential difference.
  • Another participant explains that the force on a charged particle due to a magnetic field is proportional to its velocity, indicating that if the particle is at rest, the magnetic force is zero.
  • A participant suggests that the analogy of a bar magnet may not accurately represent the behavior of electrons, proposing that electrons behave like current loops that experience torque but not net force.
  • There is a question about whether the magnetic force causes the spin of electrons to change direction or if it affects their energy, along with a query about the strength of the magnetic field during this interaction.
  • A later reply clarifies that while the spin direction may change, its magnitude remains constant, and acknowledges uncertainty regarding the behavior of the magnetic field strength during these interactions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effects of magnetic fields on electrons, particularly regarding movement and energy. There is no consensus on the implications of magnetic forces or the nature of the magnetic field's strength during interactions.

Contextual Notes

Some participants acknowledge limitations in their understanding of the magnetic field's behavior and its effects on electrons, suggesting that classical explanations may not fully capture the phenomena involved.

brian.green
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Let's see delocalized electron cloud on a surface of a metal (a piece of iron for example): When a strong Nd magnet get close the spin of these electrons allign to the magnetic field but the electrons don't move. Why? The force is not canceled out. Electrons should move and compressed in one half of the metal, build a charge (density) difference and therefore electric potential difference. It would be EMF and electric current could flow through a wire from one side to another.
In other hand the object get move to the magnet. How can the electrons resist and the whole object cannot? How can the electrons hold their position?
 
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The force on an individual charged particle due to a B field is proportional to its velocity (v cross B) as well as orthogonal to it. If the particle is not moving then F=0.
(Note that in the relativistic treatment in a frame where the particle IS moving, the transformed EM field has a E component.)

The magnetic force you are imagining is based on the mental picture of a bar magnetic where the N and S poles of the dipole have some separation. They (bar magnets) behave like a balanced pair of monopoles with finite separation and so the closer pole is more strongly attracted than the opposite farther pole is repulsed. However for the electron dipoles there is insufficient separation. A better mental analog for you to use is that the electrons behave like little current loops due to their spin. A magnetic field will induce a net torque on the loop but have no net force on it.
 
jambaugh said:
A magnetic field will induce a net torque on the loop but have no net force on it.

You mean the "spin" get "faster" due to the magnetic force? Or the energy of the magnetic force used up when electrons allign to it? By the way: the magnetic field get weaker while do work on those electrons?
 
Not "faster" the spin will change direction but as it is quantized the magnitude remains unchanged. As to the details of the field, weaker or stronger, I am not fully sure (It has been some years since I studied this.) I think the net external field grows stronger or more extensive but much of the behavior is non-intuitive and cannot all be explained in a classical paradigm. (See Bohr-van Leeuwen theorem). I will think about your question further.
 

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