Magnetic Fields and Lorentz force flaw

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of charged particles in magnetic fields generated by current-carrying wires, particularly focusing on the transition between different reference frames and the implications for the Lorentz force. Participants explore the origins of electric fields in different frames and the effects of length contraction on charge densities.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the Lorentz force appears to disappear when switching to the rest frame of a charged particle, suggesting that an electric field must arise due to this transition.
  • Another participant proposes that the particle would still perceive the magnetic field as the wire moves relative to it, potentially maintaining a Lorentz force.
  • There is a mention of length contraction affecting charge densities in the wire, leading to different electric field origins in different reference frames.
  • A reference to Feynman's lectures is made, indicating that similar scenarios can yield different forces depending on the frame of reference.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of switching reference frames, particularly regarding the existence and origin of electric fields and the behavior of forces acting on charged particles. No consensus is reached on these points.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexities of electromagnetic theory and special relativity, including the effects of charge density variations and the role of length contraction. Specific mathematical details and assumptions are not fully resolved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and professionals in physics, particularly those studying electromagnetism and special relativity, as well as anyone exploring the nuances of reference frames in physics.

xfshi2000
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HI all:
I have one confused question. a infinitely long wire carrying constant direct current is placed in the space. One particle with charge q and velocity v is moving in the magnetic field which is created by current-carrying wire. We know in the lab frame. particle will accelerate in this magnetic field and feel a lorentz force(F=(q/c)(vxB)). Now if we switch from lab reference frame to the rest frame of particle, in this rest frame, particle speed is zero. that means Lorentz force disappear. According F=q[E+1/c(vxB)]. A electrostatic field must appear.
1) What is origin of this electric field? How does it generate?
One mentions that positive charge and negative charge density in the wire are different value under different reference frame.
For a line charge with length L, the electric field E=Q(1/r^2-L^2/2r^4). Because total charge are conserved. The first term is unaffected by choosing different reference frame. For the second term, they show length contraction in different reference frame. That is why they have different positive and negative charge density in the wire under different reference frame.
In our lab frame, due to constant direct current in the wire, I assume positive charge density is larger than negative charge density.
2) Why doesn't it generate electric field? that is to say, particle with charge q only feel magnetic force and no coulomb force?
Does anyone give me detail explanation? thanks a lot
 
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xfshi2000 said:
HI all:

Now if we switch from lab reference frame to the rest frame of particle, in this rest frame, particle speed is zero. that means Lorentz force disappear. According F=q[E+1/c(vxB)]. A electrostatic field must appear.

Just a simple question: Suppose you made a mark on the wire. Wouldn't the particle see the mark receding from it, and therefore the magnetic field in motion with respect to it so the Lorentz force would, in fact, not be zero?

You might find the first paragraph of Einstein's paper on Special Relativity interesting reading...
 
xfshi2000 said:
in this rest frame, particle speed is zero. that means Lorentz force disappear. According F=q[E+1/c(vxB)]. A electrostatic field must appear.
1) What is origin of this electric field? How does it generate?
In short, it comes from length contraction. See http://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/mrr/MRRtalk.html for details.
 
Feynman does a great job with this particular example. See Vol II, 13.6 of the Lectures.
A similar problem: 2 (+) charges at rest repel each other, but viewed from a moving frame, they also feel a Lorentz B attraction...
Follow-up: What's different for gravity??
 

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