Mass of a point on an object ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanics of a hammer's operation, particularly focusing on the concepts of torque, angular momentum, and the effects of mass distribution during impact. Participants explore how the way a hammer is held and swung influences its effectiveness in delivering force, with implications for understanding angular and linear dynamics in a practical context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the mass of a hammer is perceived when swung differently, suggesting that the distance between the hammer's center of mass and the rotation point may influence the force delivered.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of torque, explaining that it increases when the axis of rotation is farther from the center of mass, and relates this to angular momentum during impact.
  • A participant seeks clarification on the notation used in the torque equation, specifically regarding vector quantities and their significance in measuring angular momentum.
  • It is noted that the linear momentum of the hammer head is crucial for impact effectiveness, regardless of how the hammer is held, with the handle allowing for a slow motion to produce a fast acceleration of the head.
  • Discussion includes the idea that the effectiveness of a hammer's impact is influenced by the distance over which it decelerates upon hitting a target, with implications for how force is applied during the impact.
  • One participant challenges the notion that holding the hammer head increases its effective mass, arguing that the "give" between the hand and the hammer head negates this effect.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the mechanics of hammer use, with some agreeing on the importance of torque and angular momentum, while others present differing interpretations of how mass and force interact during impact. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the nuances of these interactions.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of the relationship between torque, angular momentum, and the perceived mass of the hammer during different swinging methods. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of how force is applied and experienced during impact.

Nanako
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hi all. I'm currently researching angular/rotational dynamics for a hobby project I'm working on (2d physics engine). A curious thought has popped up in my mind.

How does a hammer work?

What i mean specifically is, if you hold a hammer by the handle and swing the head at something, it will hit a lot "harder" than if you hold the head and swing the handle at your target. I don't quite grasp why, though.

The total mass of the hammer is the same in both cases, and i THINK this would also apply if you swing in such a way that the velocity of the hammer is the same in both cases.

Can a point on an object (the part of the hammer that connects) be said to have mass ? Is some area around the impact point relevant in determining the mass of what hits?

A thought that came to my mind is that maybe it relates to the relationship between the impact point, the hammer's centre of mass, and the hammer's rotation point (the hammer that's holding it). Perhaps a greater distance between the latter two somehow adds more force (or power, or energy?) to the swing ?
 
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Nanako said:
the hammer's centre of mass, and the hammer's rotation point (the hammer that's holding it). Perhaps a greater distance between the latter two somehow adds more force (or power, or energy?) to the swing ?

It's torque.

Torque goes up when the axis of rotation is farther away from the center of mass.

[itex]\vec{τ} = \vec{r} \times \vec{F}[/itex]

Torque is how fast the angular momentum is changing, that's the word you were looking for. Angular momentum. When the hammer hits the nail it uses the angular momentum to deliver an impulse to drive the nail.
 
ahh, that's starting to make sense =)

a few quick questions:

Can you clarify the F thingy with an arrow over it in that equation? (i'm guessing the r is axis of rotation?)

is the angular momentum of a point generally measured from it's axis of rotation, or it's centre of mass?
 
τ is torque
F is force

Nanako said:
ahh, that's starting to make sense =)
is the angular momentum of a point generally measured from it's axis of rotation, or it's centre of mass?

it's measured with the distance between the two. That's what r is.

The arrow "hats" indicate that these are vector quantities. (magnitude and direction).

Check this out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque
 
wotanub said:
It's torque.

Torque goes up when the axis of rotation is farther away from the center of mass.

[itex]\vec{τ} = \vec{r} \times \vec{F}[/itex]

Torque is how fast the angular momentum is changing, that's the word you were looking for. Angular momentum. When the hammer hits the nail it uses the angular momentum to deliver an impulse to drive the nail.

When a hammer hits a nail the effect depends almost entirely on the linear momentum of the hammer head. For a given impact speed of the hammer head the effect is the same whether the head is held in your hand, dropped from a height or swung by a handle.

The effect of the handle is to allow a slow (but relatively strong) motion of your hand to produce a fast (but relatively weak) acceleration of the hammer head.

The key to the force multiplication in a hammer impact is that the hammer head is accelerated weakly through a long distance and then, at impact, it decelerates strongly through a short distance. By conservation of energy, the work done on the hammer during the acceleration must be equal and opposite to the work done on the hammer during the deceleration. Since the distance covered during the deceleration is small, the force must be correspondingly large.

You can see this by hammering something with a little "give" in it. The more "give", the less effective force. Carpenters, for instance, know that hammering a nail into the middle of the flat of a board that is supported at its ends can be difficult. But if they put a two-by-four, end on, on the back side of the board under the nail, hammering becomes easy.

One might think that holding the hammer head in your hand and pounding would effectively increase the mass of the hammer head, adding the mass of your hand to the mass of the head. This does not work for the same reason. There is too much "give" between the hammer head and your hand.
 
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