Math Questions in Lorentzgroup: Covariance/Contravariance Explained

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical concepts of covariance and contravariance in the context of four-vectors, particularly within the framework of relativity and the Lorentz group. Participants explore the transformation properties of these vectors, the implications of different metrics, and the specific notation used in Lorentz transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the physical difference between covariant and contravariant four-vectors, questioning whether they represent the same vector with different components in another basis.
  • Another participant notes that in Minkowski space-time, the isomorphism between contravariant and covariant indices is defined by the Minkowski metric.
  • There is a discussion about the transformation of elements in the Lorentz group, with one participant asking for clarification on the meaning of the symbol \(\Lambda\) and its role in transformations.
  • One participant presents the Lorentz transformation equations and attempts to clarify the relationship between different forms of the transformation matrices.
  • A later reply mentions that one of the matrices is the transpose of the other, implying a distinction between the two notations used.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the differences between covariant and contravariant vectors, nor on the implications of the transformation matrices. Multiple competing views and interpretations remain present throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the Minkowski metric and the proper Lorentz group \(SO(1,3)\), but there are unresolved questions regarding the application of these concepts to different metrics and the specific mathematical relationships between the transformation matrices.

Dreak
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Hi, I'm having some difficulties with my course relativity, more specifically the maths part:

To begin with, what is the 'physic' difference between covariance/contravariance four-vector (if they call it like that in English?).

I read that they transform the components of the Vectors, but not the Vectors themselves. Does that mean you got the same vector, but only it's components in an other basis, something like that?

How do you use them in formula (like: are there different math rules to use, or are only the components different between a covariant vector and its contravariant?)

The minkowski metric is same in contra-covariance, but what about other metrics, how do I change them from one to another, with the Minkowski metric or.?
Or do we simply have to apply: gμvg = δ(μλ) ?In my course, there is written that a transformation of an element in the Lorentzgroup can be written as:
V = \Lambda μvVv

What are these elements of the Lorentzgroup? What does \Lambda stand for?

Last but not least, what would be the difference between
\Lambdaμv and \LambdaμvThanks in advance!
 
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The difference between covariant and contravariant vectors has been discussed multiple times on the forum. Try doing a forum search using the search function at the top right. For example: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=689904

If you are in Minkowski space-time then the isomorphism between the contravariant and covariant indices of any tensor is given by the Minkowski metric.

Usually the subgroup of interest is the proper Lorentz group ##SO(1,3)## but regardless you can find everything you need here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_group

##\Lambda## usually stands for a Lorentz boost:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_boost#boost

In such a case, the matrix representation ##\Lambda^{\mu}_{\nu}## is symmetric so there is no difference between the two matrices you wrote down.
 
Dreak said:
In my course, there is written that a transformation of an element in the Lorentz group can be written as:
V = \Lambda μvVv

What are these elements of the Lorentzgroup? What does \Lambda stand for?

Last but not least, what would be the difference between
\Lambdaμv and \Lambdaμv
The Lorentz transformation can be written like this ##v^{\mu'}=\Lambda^{\mu'}_\mu v^\mu##

So ##v^\mu=\Lambda_{\mu'}^\mu v^{\mu'}=\Lambda_{\mu'}^\mu\Lambda^{\mu'}_\mu v^\mu ## from which you can get the relationship between ##\Lambda_{\mu'}^\mu## and ##\Lambda^{\mu'}_\mu##.

I'm not sure if this is what you are asking, though.
 
Thanks for the help!

Mentz114 said:
The Lorentz transformation can be written like this ##v^{\mu'}=\Lambda^{\mu'}_\mu v^\mu##

So ##v^\mu=\Lambda_{\mu'}^\mu v^{\mu'}=\Lambda_{\mu'}^\mu\Lambda^{\mu'}_\mu v^\mu ## from which you can get the relationship between ##\Lambda_{\mu'}^\mu## and ##\Lambda^{\mu'}_\mu##.

I'm not sure if this is what you are asking, though.

Not completely, I wonder what the difference is between: first the lower indic and then the upper indic or the other way around, first upper and then the lower indic (I hope I'm clear enough O:) )
 
Dreak said:
[...]Last but not least, what would be the difference between
\Lambdaμv and \Lambdaμv
[...]

One is the transpose of the other.
 

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