Mathematical model of Newton's first law

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical modeling of Newton's first law of dynamics, exploring whether it can be expressed quantitatively and how it relates to concepts of force, inertia, and reference frames. Participants engage in both theoretical and conceptual analysis of the law and its implications in various contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question if a mathematical model exists for the first law, suggesting it may only be a qualitative principle.
  • Others propose that the first law can be expressed mathematically in terms of momentum and force, such as through the equation ##\vec{p}=\text{const}## when no force is acting.
  • There are claims that the first law holds in non-inertial frames, leading to discussions about fictitious forces and their implications.
  • Some participants argue that without the third law, the distinction between interactive and fictitious forces becomes blurred.
  • Mathematical expressions are presented, such as ##\sum \vec F=0 \Rightarrow \frac{\text{d}\vec v}{\text{d}t}=0##, but there is contention over their correctness and equivalence.
  • One participant describes a real-life scenario involving inertia on a moving train, seeking a mathematical correlation between various variables like mass and acceleration.
  • Discussions also touch on the implications of Newton's laws in different reference frames and the concept of Galilean invariance.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether a mathematical model for the first law exists, with some asserting it is merely a principle while others attempt to formulate it mathematically. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the applicability of the first law in non-inertial frames and the interpretation of forces in such contexts.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the ambiguity surrounding the definitions of forces in non-inertial frames and the varying interpretations of mathematical expressions related to the first law. The discussion also highlights the complexity of distinguishing between inertial and non-inertial frames.

  • #31
hclatomic said:
Please allow me to get forward, as I feel that your thought is in the right direction.

Newton is a great compilator, but he was an hawful guy. All people around him detested him. He finished his life away of every one, stuck by alchemy and horoscopes, far from science. The famous 1/r^2 gravitation law has been stated by Robert Hook, referencing the works of Huygens on the sling physics, in a letter to Newton. This last insulted him, saying that he was a freak and did not deserve any attention. But this made the reputation of Newton, the thief, in the "Principia", until us.

A particular experience is the debate with Emilie Du Chatelet about the kinetic energy, and this is a point close to your concerns. Emily shew experimentally that it is mv^2 and not m v as Newton postulated (once again, postulate, postulate). Emily was right, Newton was wrong.

In the XIXth century, Lagrange entered in the same mood as yours. He felt that all these postulates should be explanable by the mathematics, in a way or an other. He wrote one of the most important piece of science of the humanity in "Mécanique Analytique", and bound everything and every one (Hyugens, Hook, Newton, Du Chatelet, ...) however by including the Maupertuis's postulate of least action. You heard of Hamilton, of course, but know trom now that this is only a rewrite of Lagrange's work in a particular mathematical way.

I really insist on this : read Lev Landau and Evgueny Lifchitz, Mechanics, Ed. Mir, Moscow. If you need to understand what the classical physics is, you will find no better way. All I told you here is mathematically stated in an elegant mathematical way by these authors.

Your questioning is at the door of the understanding, please get on.

Thank you very much, I'm going to read this book immediately!
 
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  • #32
hclatomic said:
A particular experience is the debate with Emilie Du Chatelet about the kinetic energy, and this is a point close to your concerns. Emily shew experimentally that it is mv^2 and not m v as Newton postulated (once again, postulate, postulate). Emily was right, Newton was wrong.

Eh, you've got a few misconceptions there. First, Newton didn't claim that kinetic energy itself was given by ##mv##; in fact, there was no distinction between kinetic energy and momentum during that time. It was Gottfried Leibniz who, as early as 1686, suggested that kinetic energy (which he called vis viva, or "living force") was proportional to the square of velocity. However, this view was widely contested by followers of Newton and DesCartes as it did not seem to be compatible with conservation of momentum, while ##mv## was (again there was no distinction between KE and momentum at the time).

It wasn't until 1719 and 1722 when Giovanni Poleni and Williem 's Gravesande independently confirmed Leibniz's quadratic relationship, empirically, by dropping balls onto clay. Williem 's Gravesande then told Emilie about his findings, who repeated the experiment, confirmed it, then published the results.
 
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