Measuring Liquid Flow: Steady or Not?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining whether the flow of liquid is steady or unsteady based on its velocity. Participants explore concepts related to laminar and turbulent flow, the role of the Reynolds number, and the implications of time-varying velocity in fluid dynamics. The scope includes theoretical considerations and practical implications in fluid mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that a flow is steady if the time derivative of velocity, dv/dt, is zero.
  • Others argue that in laminar flow, steady conditions are indicated by dv/dt=0, but question how to ascertain if the flow is indeed laminar.
  • It is proposed that the Reynolds number should be checked to assess the presence of turbulence, although its relevance may depend on the flow geometry.
  • One participant asserts that the velocity in the Navier-Stokes equations represents an exact velocity at a point, which may be time-varying, contradicting the notion of it being merely an average flow velocity.
  • Another participant challenges the idea that the Reynolds number universally indicates turbulence, noting that its correlation with turbulence is primarily valid for pipe flow and does not apply broadly across different geometries.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions and implications of steady versus unsteady flow, the role of the Reynolds number, and the interpretation of velocity in fluid dynamics. No consensus is reached on these points.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific flow conditions, the need for assumptions regarding flow geometry, and the unresolved nature of the relationship between Reynolds number and turbulence onset in various contexts.

varunika
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how can we know whether the flow of liquid is steady or not from its velocity?
 
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Check if dv/dt is zero?

Zz.
 
In case of a laminar flow the flow would be steady when dv/dt=0. But how do you know it is laminar? In the real world v denotes a sort of average flow velocity, ignoring any turbulence. I think you should also check the Reynolds number. That will tell you something about the presence of turbulence. However, the Reynolds number depends also on the shape of the surroundings of the flow...
 
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The only answer you need is that for a steady flow, \frac{\partial \vec{v}}{\partial t} = 0. In practice, there are no flows that are truly steady, as you will basically always find small fluctuations, but you can often approximate a flow as steady provided those fluctuations are small enough and random so as not to affect the mean flow in any way, which is not always the case.

Qloq said:
But how do you know it is laminar?

You can tell in a few ways. Probably the most canonical is to measure the time-varying velocity in the boundary layer at the point in question and look at the power spectrum. For a fully-developed, turbulent flow, there should be a very distinctive power spectrum for most flow classes. You can also determine this more qualitatively by comparing with the laminar regions of the same flow, e.g. if you had a sudden spike in heating rate or skin friction as you move downstream or the boundary layer abruptly rapidly grows in thickness, that can mean the flow has transitioned. Understanding some of the physics of a given flow helps immensely here, though, as sometimes you can be tricked by that approach.

Qluq said:
In the real world v denotes a sort of average flow velocity, ignoring any turbulence.

This isn't true. In the real world, the \vec{v} in the Navier-Stokes is the exact velocity at a given point in space and time and very well may be representative of a time-varying quantity. Now, if you make certain assumptions or models which involve averaging, then yes, it may well represent an average.

Qluq said:
I think you should also check the Reynolds number. That will tell you something about the presence of turbulence.

This is also not true, or at the very least highly misleading. For pipe flow and pipe flow only, there is a fairly strong correlation between the diameter Reynolds number and the development of turbulence. That said, having a given Reynolds number in a pipe only means that turbulence will develop, not that it has already. Otherwise, for any other geometry, there is no hard and fast rule relating the Reynolds number to the onset of turbulence. Finding such a rule would be a major discovery and possibly even the sort of things that could garner Nobel contention, though who really knows.
 

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