Metabolizing fat, ketogenic and Atkins-like diets

[Physics-Learner]

ivan,

the low-carb diets have not really had mass appeal until fairly recently. so there is really no long-term study that one can do.

i will reiterate what i said. you have a problem with insulin and sugar. the best route is to try and fix that. what seems to make sense to me is to experiment with how much sugar you can intake. and what sorts of foods are less problematic than others ?

since at least in the short term, your carb intake is going to be considerably lower than average, just try to take in whatever maximum your body allows, before it has adverse reactions.

my thought is that you may be able to gradually increase your carb levels to what they should be, in a normal situation. "gradually" could be 10 years or more. no way to tell until you actually do it for yourself.

there are lots of advanced tests that you can take to see what sorts of problems you may have, that you are not aware of.

try this site - i have used them in the past.

http://www.metametrix.com/

you can get amino acid profile, fatty acids profile, toxics, allergens, etc.

if you take a full array of tests, i am almost positive you will learn about quite a few imbalances that should be corrected. once imbalances get corrected, lots of things start fixing themselves automatically.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

ivan,

the low-carb diets have not really had mass appeal until fairly recently. so there is really no long-term study that one can do.

I don't know about that. It has been around for almost 40 years. It was first popularized beginning 1972.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkins_diet

I appreciate your input and plan to do just as you suggest, but I would like to get back on topic now.

 

[DanP]

You will not burn only fat, even in a state of complete adaptation to starvation, when ketosis runs full steam. Proteolysis is proceeding forward at normal rates, as a result you will loose skeletal muscle mass. Some of the resulting amino-acids will be used in gluconeogensis. Lack of normal levels of insulin (and you have abysmal levels with 20g of carbs / day )result in a catabolic environment, where it is almost impossible for the body to have a level of protein synthesis to maintain balanced protein turnover in the skeletal muscles.

As a result you will gradual deplete your proteins in the skeletal muscles, in addition to shedding fat at a steady rate.

My advice is to eat balanced, engage in a form of exercise (even walking will do-it if you didn't do anything till now, and some light resistance training , even push-ups from your knees and and air squats at least ) and eat under your maintenance levels with ~500 to 700 kcal. Any diet under 1500 Kcal for a man should be supplemented with vitamins and minerals, unless you have access to foods which pack the whole RDI of vitamins and minerals.

You will have to readjust caloric intake several times. In the end, losing fat is first and foremost about energy balance. Yes, hormones, and all that play a key role, but when all is said and done, energy balance remains the main factor.

The best thing which you can do is fork some US$ and consult with a reputable nutritionist, and follow his advice to the letter. Go to an expert and do what he tells you to do. Plan for the future and you'll be happy. Look for silver bullet and you'll end back fat.

Almost all humans I seen dieting on their own lost a lot of muscle, got a weak flabby body, and all for nothing since they regained the weight at alarming rates as soon as they started to feed ad libitum again.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You will not burn only fat, even in a state of complete adaptation to starvation, when ketosis runs full steam. Proteolysis is proceeding forward at normal rates, as a result you will loose skeletal muscle mass. Some of the resulting amino-acids will be used in gluconeogensis. Lack of normal levels of insulin (and you have abysmal levels with 20g of carbs / day )result in a catabolic environment, where it is almost impossible for the body to have a level of protein synthesis to maintain balanced protein turnover in the skeletal muscles.

As a result you will gradual deplete your proteins in the skeletal muscles, in addition to shedding fat at a steady rate.

As I understand it, one avoids this by consuming large quantities of protein.

 

[DanP]

As I understand it, one avoids this by consuming large quantities of protein.

It's not. Skeletal muscle protein suffers constant breakdown and rebuild in a process called protein turnover. Lacking insulin, the ratio of proteolysis / protein synthesis goes out of whack. This process is under hormonal control, and insulin acts as one of the regulators, for both syntheses and preoteolysis. It up-regulates synthesis and down-regulates breakdown. It's biochem 101. Youll just oxidize most of your large quantities of protein ingested.

Resistance training also up-regulates protein sysnthesis in skeletal muscle, so it will have a protective effect. My advice stands. Consult an expert and follow his advice to the letter. And exercise, if you will get cleared by your MD.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It's not. Skeletal muscle protein suffers constant breakdown and rebuild in a process called protein turnover. Lacking insulin, the ratio of proteolysis / protein synthesis goes out of whack. This process is under hormonal control, and insulin acts as one of the regulators, for both syntheses and preoteolysis. It up-regulates synthesis and down-regulates breakdown. It's biochem 101. Youll just oxidize most of your large quantities of protein ingested. .

Thanks for the input.

Why would there be a severe lack of insulin? Isn't insulin still released due to protein conversion to sugar [ATP]?

Just to be clear: The point of this diet was not the goal of a silver bullet, but rather I saw it as a way to avoid the problems I have with carb intake. It was an act of desperation. I have been following the normal advice of "eating less and more often" for ten years, with constant blood sugar problems. How can one eat less than one piece of toast for breakfast? Fruit? Out of the question. It sends me into almost instant problems. I don't reject the standard advice, but it hasn't been working and there are no other options to my knowledge.

 

[DanP]

Thanks for the input.

Why would there be a severe lack of insulin? Isn't insulin still released due to protein conversion to sugar [ATP]?

There is a low level on insulin even in complete starvation, which ensures an equilibrium between ketone bodies, gluconeogensis and ffa. Without insulin (or resistance to it) , starvation or ketogenic diets can lead fast metabolic acidosis and serious issues. It's never absent.

You are also probably in caloric restriction if you manage to lose mass. Low carb intake, caloric restriction and the fact that your brain runs on ketone bodies thus requiring less CHO will result in low insulin levels IMO, even if you will get some glucose from alanine and glutamine.

It was an act of desperation. I have been following the normal advice of "eating less and more often" for ten years, with constant blood sugar problems. How can one eat less than one piece of toast for breakfast? Fruit? Out of the question. It sends me into almost instant problems. I don't reject the standard advice, but it hasn't been working and there are no other options to my knowledge.

Well, keto diets can get the work done , no question about it. Not my choiche. Just exercise if you dont's already and make that a habit , it may have a sparing effect on your muscle mass and will help with a whole host of health issues.

 

[Proton Soup]

As I understand it, one avoids this by consuming large quantities of protein.

it will limit loss when coupled with resistance training. but it won't completely eliminate muscle loss. bodybuilders and strength athletes will often diet this way, with a goal of losing more fat than lean when going down, and vice versa.

 

[Proton Soup]

I do appreciate all of the input.

Getting back to the main point here. One of the outstanding questions in all of this is whether there is any definitive evidence that this diet is dangerous. Controversial, yes, but my take was that applies to both sides of the argument. As far as I know, the Atkins diet has never been shown definitively to do harm.

There are two issues here. First is the question of high-fat diets, where the concern is coronary and vascular disease. Next is more the question of low-carb diets [with added protein and fat to compensate], which could affect not only the liver but also the brain. As I understand it, stress on the liver due to the added protein load is one of the biggest concerns.

i think usually the thing mentioned is that some believe high protein diets cause kidney damage. but this is mostly theoretical. good luck finding papers that show it.

ketogenic diets are often used in the management of epilepsy, so one might want to look there for possible health effects. it has potential to limit growth in pediatric patients, but probably not a concern for you now.

if you troll http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed" , you'll find more. probably want to look for reviews and free full text articles. here's a couple of examples, don't know helpful they are to you.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/119/3/535
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/?tool=pubmed

 

[DanP]

Ivan, try to find this to read more and make some edcuate descisions. IMO those are the most relevant papers for someone in your situation

1. Evaluation of a tool for rating popular diet books (William & Williams 2003)
2. Role of calcium and dairy products in energy partitioning and weight management (Zemel 2004)
3. Role of calcium and dairy products in modulating adisposity (Zemel 2003)
4. A Randomized trial of low carbohydrate diet for obesity (Foster& all 2004)
5. The effects of low carbohydrate versus conventional weight loss in severely obese adults: one year follow-up in a randomized trial (Stern & all 2004)
6. Effects of Zone diet macronutrient proportions on blood lipids, blood glucose, body composition and treadmill exercise performance (Bose & all, 2004)
7. The zone diet phenomenon:A closer look to the science behind the claims (Cheuvront 2003)
8. A low fat carbohydrate ketogenic diet vs a low fat diet to treat obesity
and hyperlipidaemia: a randomized controlled trial (Yancy & all 2004)
9. Behavioural treatment of obesity (Wadden & Foster 2004)
10. Metabolic effects of high protein, low carbohydrate diet. (Denke 2001)


Lard is a curse. Get rid of it, your life will be 10x better. Exercise for the rest of your life. If need be, paint your house walls with slogans "Ill never get fat again" , watch what you eat for the whole rest of your life, obsees with weigting yourself once a week, do whatever it takes, just keep it off.

 

[Physics-Learner]

hi ivan,

just to reiterate, make sure that you get consistent testing, so that you can monitor the results of your decisions, whatever they may be.

 

[nismaratwork]

hi ivan,

just to reiterate, make sure that you get consistent testing, so that you can monitor the results of your decisions, whatever they may be.

Amen to that!

@DanP: Good to have you back in the saddle.

So, what I'm taking away from this is BE FIT, but above all, don't burden your body with excess fat, and any healthy means to rid yourself of that is game. In Ivan's case, under the care of an expert, I'd tend to PL's view: take a pint of blood per week for testing! Still... I can't help, but enjoy this human experiment (sorry Ivan!)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I didn't see that anyone has posted this so here you go. It appears that evidence is mounting that a low carb diet can slow, suppress, or delay the onset of various cancers.

Over the last years, evidence has accumulated suggesting that by systematically reducing the amount of dietary carbohydrates (CHOs) one could suppress, or at least delay, the emergence of cancer, and that proliferation of already existing tumor cells could be slowed down. This hypothesis is supported by the association between modern chronic diseases like the metabolic syndrome and the risk of developing or dying from cancer. CHOs or glucose, to which more complex carbohydrates are ultimately digested, can have direct and indirect effects on tumor cell proliferation: first, contrary to normal cells, most malignant cells depend on steady glucose availability in the blood for their energy and biomass generating demands and are not able to metabolize significant amounts of fatty acids or ketone bodies due to mitochondrial dysfunction. Second, high insulin and insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-1 levels resulting from chronic ingestion of CHO-rich Western diet meals, can directly promote tumor cell proliferation via the insulin/IGF1 signaling pathway. Third, ketone bodies that are elevated when insulin and blood glucose levels are low, have been found to negatively affect proliferation of different malignant cells in vitro or not to be usable by tumor cells for metabolic demands, and a multitude of mouse models have shown anti-tumorigenic properties of very low CHO ketogenic diets. In addition, many cancer patients exhibit an altered glucose metabolism characterized by insulin resistance and may profit from an increased protein and fat intake.

In this review, we address the possible beneficial effects of low CHO diets on cancer prevention and treatment. Emphasis will be placed on the role of insulin and IGF1 signaling in tumorigenesis as well as altered dietary needs of cancer patients...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267662/

As for me, I've lost 65 pounds, cut 12 inches from my waist [now 32"], added lots of muscle, and am in the best shape I've been in since high school. For the first time since I can remember, my bp is down to 120/80. All of my blood work looks good. I've been doing this for 30 months now.

Oh yes and this is strange: For the first time since I was about ten years old, I don't need to take antacids any more. I used to take as many as ~ten a day. I ALWAYS had Tums or Rolaids in my pocket.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

I didn't see that anyone has posted this so here you go. It appears that evidence is mounting that a low carb diet can slow, suppress, or delay the onset of various cancers.

You realize that a substantial number of posts here are from people who have been banned. Beside you, only Ken Natton and bobze are still around. I'm just making an observation. This is a either a dangerous topic or a strange coincidence.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You realize that a substantial number of posts here are from people who have been banned. Beside you, only Ken Natton and bobze are still around. I'm just making an observation. This is a either a dangerous topic or a strange coincidence.

Really? Personal innuendo over a published paper?

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Really? Personal innuendo over a published paper?

No. Just caution.

 

[Evo]

You realize that a substantial number of posts here are from people who have been banned. Beside you, only Ken Natton and bobze are still around. I'm just making an observation. This is a either a dangerous topic or a strange coincidence.

LOL, it is a strange coincidence.

 

[sgrondahl]

Hey Ivan,

Metabolic syndrome can be completely reversed if you work at it. It is what in the US they call pre-diabetes. In Europe, they just call it diabetes - they don't have a distinction.

Two things might help you. One is completely free. The other will cost you $100 bucks, more or less.

1) go to: http://www.sparkpeople.com/ and sign up. Like I said, it is completely free. The information available there to solve your problem is amazing!

2) go to https://www.fitbit.com and get a fitbit. I think they have a basic model for $60-ish bucks, and really cool ones for $30 bucks more. (You can also get them at BestBuy and Amazon.) For me, that was a ton of money, because I am a full time student, but, I REALLY needed to get one of these devices.

These two websites can now talk to each other, so your data can be interchanged. Sparkpeople can track all your calories and give you a daily breakdown of what you ingested etc. Fitbit keeps track of your exercise, which is a KEY INGREDIENT to your REVERSAL of metabolic syndrome. This is the KEY to keep this disease from PROGRESSING to full blown diabetes. Both sites have tons of support and groups so you can learn more and understand why diet accompanied by exercise is the only way to undo the damage.

So far, I can't say that I have lost a ton of weight, but I have shrunk considerably. Down quite a few clothes sizes in a short amount of time. More IMPORTANTLY, I have cut my high blood pressure in half, and my body is getting ready to reduce this again! Which is huge.

Aktins diet is amazing. There have been some new studies out there that suggest that Atkins is very appropriate for diabetic patients. Hang in there. Sorry about the milk thing. I have 3 gallons in the frig that will probably be gone in a week... so I totally understand your frustration... :)

One additional note. There are a ton of registered dietitians out there that can seriously help you. You might want to investigate some in your area.

Best of luck.