Meteorology: Turbulence/Dimensionless Analysis

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of friction velocity, shear stress, and temperature and moisture scales in the context of turbulence and dimensionless analysis, specifically using the MOST framework. Participants express confusion regarding the definitions and relationships between these terms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on the definition of friction velocity (u*) and its relationship to shear stress, noting that their textbook describes it only as a velocity scale.
  • Another participant suggests that friction velocity is based on wall shear stress and indicates that it may lack a straightforward physical interpretation.
  • There is a question about the meaning of shear stress, with a participant proposing that it relates to the resistance between fast and slow-moving air layers in turbulence.
  • Participants discuss the mathematical expression for friction velocity, questioning the origin of the square root in the formula u* = squareroot(surface shear stress)/density = squareroot(-u'w').
  • There is confusion regarding the definitions of temperature scale (T*) and moisture scale (q*) in the context of water vapor.
  • A later reply asserts that the surface shear stress is not equal to ##\rho {u'w'}##, prompting further inquiry into its implications.
  • Another participant explains that due to the no-slip boundary condition, velocity fluctuations at the surface are zero, indicating that only viscous stress is present at the surface.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and confusion regarding the concepts discussed. There is no consensus on the definitions or relationships of the terms, and multiple viewpoints are presented without resolution.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their understanding, particularly regarding the definitions and mathematical relationships involved in turbulence analysis. The discussion reflects a reliance on specific assumptions and interpretations that may not be universally accepted.

AppeltjeBosheuvel
Good afternoon,

I find it hard to understand friction velocity, shear stress, momentum and temperature scale. For a class, we are using MOST dimensionless analysis to find values of intensity for the turbulence. However, I'm struggling with the terms.

What exactly is friction velocity u*? My book only states it is a velocity scale.
I read online it is the same as shear velocity, when shear stress is rewritten in units of velocity (I assume so it is easier to make a dimensionless analysis later). But what exactly is shear stress though? Is is the stress of the resistance between a fast and slow moving air layer when it comes to turbulence? I find it hard to understand.

Functions given are u* = squareroot(surface shear stress)/density = squareroot(-u'w')
Where does the square root come from?

What exactly is T* temperature scale and q* moisture scale of water vapor?

I'm super confused. Thanks already!
 
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Welcome to the wonderful world of turbulence. Friction velocity (and similar scaling factors) don't always have meaningful physical interpretations. In this case, it's a velocity scale that is based on the wall shear stress. As far as I know, it has no other easily-parsed explanations.
 
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Thank you :)
 
AppeltjeBosheuvel said:
Good afternoon,

I find it hard to understand friction velocity, shear stress, momentum and temperature scale. For a class, we are using MOST dimensionless analysis to find values of intensity for the turbulence. However, I'm struggling with the terms.

What exactly is friction velocity u*? My book only states it is a velocity scale.
I read online it is the same as shear velocity, when shear stress is rewritten in units of velocity (I assume so it is easier to make a dimensionless analysis later). But what exactly is shear stress though? Is is the stress of the resistance between a fast and slow moving air layer when it comes to turbulence? I find it hard to understand.

Functions given are u* = squareroot(surface shear stress)/density = squareroot(-u'w')
Where does the square root come from?

What exactly is T* temperature scale and q* moisture scale of water vapor?

I'm super confused. Thanks already!
The surface shear stress is not equal to ##\rho {u'w'}##.
 
Chestermiller said:
The surface shear stress is not equal to ##\rho {u'w'}##.

So what does that meam?
 
AppeltjeBosheuvel said:
So what does that meam?
It means that, because of the no-slip boundary condition, the velocity fluctuations at the surface are zero. So only the viscous stress is present at the surface.
 
Thank you
 

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