Momentum of a System and External Forces

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the relationship between internal and external forces in determining the conservation of momentum during collisions, specifically in car accidents. Pearson explains that during brief collisions, such as car crashes, the external forces (like braking) are negligible compared to the internal forces, allowing momentum to be approximately conserved. The conversation highlights the importance of analyzing the time interval of the collision and suggests that a mathematical expression relating internal and external forces could provide further insight. The ratio of braking distance to crush zone is proposed as a potential approximation for this relationship.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of conservation of momentum principles
  • Familiarity with internal and external forces in physics
  • Knowledge of inelastic collisions and energy conservation
  • Basic grasp of mathematical expressions related to force and momentum
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the mathematical derivation of momentum conservation in inelastic collisions
  • Explore the concept of impulse and its relation to momentum (J = F(net average) * delta t = delta p)
  • Investigate the effects of external forces on momentum in various collision scenarios
  • Study the relationship between braking distance and crush zone in vehicle collisions
USEFUL FOR

Physics students, automotive engineers, and professionals involved in accident reconstruction who seek to understand the dynamics of momentum during collisions.

gibberingmouther
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So Pearson is telling me that, basically, the ratio of internal to external forces and the briefness of the time interval is what determines whether the external forces on a system whose momentum we're studying will affect whether we can obtain a decent approximation of the momenta of the objects using the conservation of momentum principle.

Specifically, in a car collision situation where the drivers are pushing their breaks when the cars hit: "The collision between the cars involves brief forces that are much stronger than the forces of friction exerted on the cars by the road. Thus if we apply conservation of momentum to a very thin “slice” of time surrounding the collision, the total momentum of the two cars will not change very much and will be approximately conserved."

This makes intuitive sense to me, that the tiny force of rolling friction for say a pool ball collision isn't going to affect momentum conservation much. But I'm trying to find a F(internal)/F(external) expression of some kind to mathematically back up this idea, and I can't find anything.

Does J = F(net average) * delta t = delta p have any bearing on this?

I mean, in the sense of the fact that the breaking won't have a huge impact on the cars' velocities, this makes sense, but I'm looking for a mathematical expression to back it up. Is there one?
 
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The very fact that cars do not simply bounce off each other without any deformations shows you that car crashes are usually not described by elastic scattering processes. This would be great since then crashes wouldn't damage the cars at all ;-))).

[Edit: This argument is wrong. Momentum is indeed conserved in the inelastic collision, but of course not energy. @hilbert2 is right!]
 
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But isn't the elasticity of a collision related to the conservation of energy, not that of momentum?
 
That's indeed true.
 
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gibberingmouther said:
But I'm trying to find a F(internal)/F(external) expression of some kind to mathematically back up this idea, and I can't find anything.

The ratio between braking distance and crush zone should be a good approximation.
 
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