A MTW Gravitation: Exercise 5.1 | Beginner GR Stress-Energy Tensor Symmetry

Click For Summary
The discussion focuses on the symmetry of the stress-energy tensor in general relativity, particularly in the context of equations from the textbook "Gravitation." The user struggles with the transition from equation 5.22 to 5.23, noting confusion over the symmetry of certain terms involving the electromagnetic field tensor. Clarifications reveal that the first term can indeed be shown to be symmetric despite initial appearances, and the importance of understanding index notation and the role of the metric tensor is emphasized. Ultimately, the user resolves their misunderstanding regarding the calculation of specific components of the stress-energy tensor, aided by insights from other participants. This exchange highlights the complexities of tensor calculus in general relativity and the value of collaborative problem-solving.
Mike Karr
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
TL;DR
It seems that the stress-energy tensor is both symmetric and non-symmetric.
I am a beginner in GR, working my through Gravitation by the above authors. If there is a better place to ask this question, please let me know.

I understand (from section 5.7) that the stress-energy tensor is symmetric, and from equation 5.23 (p. 141), it is explicitly symmetric. But evaluating equation 5.22 in a Lorentz coordinate frame, the last term is clearly symmetric, but the first term involves ##F^{\nu}_{\alpha}##, which is non-symmetric, at least according to equation 5.3 (p. 73). In particular, it is symmetric in the 0th column and row and anti-symmetric in the rest of the matrix. Multiplied by the anti-symmetric ##F^{\mu\alpha}## does not help the situation. So I can't get from 5.22 to 5.23.

I suppose my problem is understanding "in a Lorentz frame", but I thought all definitions of F and ##\nu## *are* in a Lorentz frame. Where am I going wrong?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
The first term is symmetric for the simple reason that ##S^{\mu \nu} \equiv F^{\mu \alpha} {F^{\nu}}_{\alpha} = {F^{\mu}}_{\alpha} F^{\nu \alpha} = F^{\nu \alpha}{F^{\mu}}_{\alpha} = S^{\nu \mu}##.
 
  • Like
Likes vanhees71
Mike Karr said:
Summary:: It seems that the stress-energy tensor is both symmetric and non-symmetric.

Multiplied by the anti-symmetric $F^{\mu\alpha}$ does not help the situation.
As @ergospherical showed, yes it does. The index ##\alpha## is not a free index and you therefore cannot consider if the expression is symmetric under exchange ##\mu \leftrightarrow \alpha## because doing so does not make any sense.
 
  • Like
Likes vanhees71
Orodruin said:
As @ergospherical showed, yes it does. The index ##\alpha## is not a free index and you therefore cannot consider if the expression is symmetric under exchange ##\mu \leftrightarrow \alpha## because doing so does not make any sense.
Of course. Sorry to bother you with something so trivial.
 
ergospherical said:
The first term is symmetric for the simple reason that ##S^{\mu \nu} \equiv F^{\mu \alpha} {F^{\nu}}_{\alpha} = {F^{\mu}}_{\alpha} F^{\nu \alpha}##
For the last term above I found ##F^{\mu \alpha} {F^{\nu}}_{\alpha} = {F^{\mu}}_{\gamma} \eta^{\alpha \gamma} {F^{\nu}}_{\alpha} = {F^{\mu}}_{\gamma} F^{\nu \gamma}## , then renaming the dummy index ##\gamma \leftrightarrow \alpha## we get
$$S^{\mu \nu} = {F^{\mu}}_{\alpha} F^{\nu \alpha} = F^{\nu \alpha}{F^{\mu}}_{\alpha} = S^{\nu \mu}$$
Btw, just from a formal point of view, is it required to switch the indexes of the metric tensor ##\eta^{\alpha \gamma}## in order to raise the ##\alpha## index of ##{F^{\nu}}_{\alpha}## turning it into ##F^{\nu \gamma}## ? Thank you.
 
Last edited:
cianfa72 said:
Btw, just from a formal point of view, is it required to switch the indexes of the metric tensor ηαγ in order to raise the α index of Fνα turning it in Fνγ ?
That is kind of a moot point since the metric is symmetric by definition. Most people will do this without blinking.
 
Orodruin said:
That is kind of a moot point since the metric is symmetric by definition. Most people will do this without blinking.
yes of course, however from what you said the process of raising or lowering a tensor index by the metric tensor formally seems to require that.
 
cianfa72 said:
is it required to switch the indexes of the metric tensor ##\eta^{\alpha \gamma}##
What does "switch the indexes" even mean? The labels you put on the indexes are arbitrary.
 
PeterDonis said:
What does "switch the indexes" even mean? The labels you put on the indexes are arbitrary.
If you see for example here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_and_lowering_indices the process of raising or lowering a tensor index involves as dummy/summing index the second index of the metric tensor.

Said that, from a practical point of view since the metric tensor is symmetric, there is actually no business to switch the indexes as in the above #5.
 
Last edited:
  • #10
It's irrelevant for tensors over a real vector space. You do have to worry about the order with spinorial tensors, whose indices are by convention lowered by contracting over the left index of ##\epsilon_{AB}## and vice versa, e.g. ##v_A = \epsilon_{BA} v^B = - \epsilon_{AB} v^B##. (One consequence of this is that swapping the heights of a pair of contracted indices introduces a minus sign, ##u_A v^A = - u^A v_A##).
 
  • Like
Likes dextercioby
  • #12
As I said in #9 there is no problem at all ! As @ergospherical clarified for tensors over real vector spaces it is actually irrelevant.
 
  • #13
Mike Karr said:
Of course. Sorry to bother you with something so trivial.
Sorry, I got unconfused too quickly. I don't get the correct answer for ## T^{00} ##. Let's look at the two terms of equation 5.22. The last one is simple, I think:

## - \frac{1}{4} \eta^{\mu\nu} F_{\alpha\beta} F^{\alpha\beta}
= - \frac{1}{4} \eta^{\mu\nu} 2(E_x^2 + E_y^2 + E_z^2 + B_x^2 + B_y^2 + B_z^2)
= - \frac{1}{2} \eta^{\mu\nu} (E^2 + B^2) ##

Let's look at the ## \mu = 0 = \nu ## of the first term. The ## \alpha ##'s (second index) run across the rows of the matrices on pp. 73-74, so:

## F^{0\alpha} F^0_\alpha = (0, -E_x, -E_y, -E_z) \cdot (0, E_x, E_y, E_z)
= - E_x^2 - E_y^2 - E_z^2 = - E^2 ##

Since ## \eta^{00} = -1 ## (p. 53), the sum of these two terms is ## \frac{1}{2} ( - E^2 + B^2) ##, so dividing by ## 4 \pi ## gives:

## \frac{1}{8 \pi} ( - E^2 + B^2) ##

But the answer given by Ex. 5.1 is:

## \frac{1}{8 \pi} (E^2 + B^2) ##

What am I doing wrong?
 
  • #14
In a local Lorentz frame ##\eta = \mathrm{diag}(-1,\mathbf{I})## so\begin{align*}
4\pi T^{00} &= F^{0\alpha} {F^0}_{\alpha} + \frac{1}{4} F_{\alpha \beta} F^{\alpha \beta}
\end{align*}Recall that ##E_i = F_{0i}## and ##B_i = -(1/2) \epsilon_{ijk} F^{jk}##. That means ##F^{0\alpha} {F^0}_{\alpha} = E^i E_i = E^2## and also \begin{align*}
F_{\alpha \beta} F^{\alpha \beta} &= 2F_{0i} F^{0i} + F_{ij} F^{ij} \\
&= -2E_i E^i + (\epsilon_{ijk} B^k)(\epsilon_{ijl} B_l)
\end{align*}Use the epsilon-delta identity: ##\epsilon_{ijk} \epsilon_{ijl} = \delta_{jj} \delta_{kl} - \delta_{jl} \delta_{kj} = 2\delta_{kl}##. Then\begin{align*}
F_{\alpha \beta} F^{\alpha \beta} &= -2E^2 + 2B^k B_l \delta_{kl} = 2(-E^2 + B^2)
\end{align*}Overall: ##4\pi T^{00} = E^2 + \frac{1}{2}(-E^2 + B^2) = \frac{1}{2}(E^2 + B^2)##.
 
  • #15
ergospherical, thanks for your answer. What I was doing wrong was using the wrong components in ##F^{\alpha\beta} ##---I swapped the 0th row and 0th column. But your answer is much more clever, using formulas for ##E_i## and especially for ##B_i## that I would never have thought of. Also, I did not know of the epsilon-delta identity. Is it in MTW? Again, thanks for the help.
 
  • #16
Mike Karr said:
Also, I did not know of the epsilon-delta identity. Is it in MTW?
not sure, but the general formula is a fiddly determinant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi-Civita_symbol#Product

the most useful version to memorise is a single contracted index ##\epsilon_{ijk} \epsilon_{ilm} = \delta_{jl} \delta_{km} - \delta_{jm} \delta_{kl}## (mnemonic: something like "product of same positions minus product of opposite positions")