Mutual effects of gravity and velocity on time

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mutual effects of gravity and velocity on the passage of time, particularly in the context of the Earth's shape as an oblate spheroid. Participants explore how General Relativity and Special Relativity interact to potentially maintain synchronicity of clocks across the Earth's surface, considering both gravitational effects and rotational velocity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that gravity is stronger at the North/South Poles due to the Earth's oblate spheroid shape, while others challenge this assumption, suggesting it may not be accurate.
  • One participant proposes that the effects of gravity and velocity do cancel out, maintaining synchronicity of clocks on the geoid, citing energy conservation and equipotential surfaces as part of their reasoning.
  • Another participant emphasizes that tidal forces from the sun and moon, although small, do have an effect that is not included in the initial analysis.
  • There is mention of deriving conclusions based on the assumption of energy conservation in General Relativity, particularly in static geometries.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the strength of gravity at the poles versus the equator, indicating a lack of consensus. While some support the idea that clocks on the geoid run at the same rate, the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of tidal forces and the accuracy of the initial assumptions.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their analysis, including the exclusion of tidal forces and the complexities of energy conservation in General Relativity, particularly in non-static geometries.

Dmstifik8ion
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The Earth takes the shape of an oblate spheroid due to its rotation and so gravity is stronger at the North/South Poles while the Equator has a velocity relative to the Poles.
When we consider General Relativity (the effect of gravity on the passage of time) together with Special Relativity (the effect of velocity on the passage of time) do these effects precisely cancel out maintaining synchronicity of clocks over the surface of a rotating oblate spheroid?
 
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Dmstifik8ion said:
The Earth takes the shape of an oblate spheroid due to its rotation and so gravity is stronger at the North/South Poles...
Don't be so quick to assume that gravity is greater at the poles because of the smaller radius. I believe this is false.
 
Dmstifik8ion said:
The Earth takes the shape of an oblate spheroid due to its rotation and so gravity is stronger at the North/South Poles while the Equator has a velocity relative to the Poles.
When we consider General Relativity (the effect of gravity on the passage of time) together with Special Relativity (the effect of velocity on the passage of time) do these effects precisely cancel out maintaining synchronicity of clocks over the surface of a rotating oblate spheroid?

Basically, the answer is yes. All clocks on the geoid run at the same rate. See for instance http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-9/p12.html or http://hermes.aei.mpg.de/2003/1/article.xhtml (it's a long article, see the section above (21)).

This ignores tidal forces from the sun and moon, which have only a very small effect. (The effect does perturb the theoretical ideal, i.e. it hasn't been included in the above analysis).

One can derive this if one assumes that energy is conserved. The geoid is defined to be an equipotential surface in the rotating frame. Therfore, if energy is conserved, light measured in the rotating frame should have the same energy if it starts and stops at any two equipotential points, i.e. there should be no net red or blueshift between any two points on the geoid.

Energy conservation in GR can get tricky, but as long as one sticks to static geometries this argument works fine.
 
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pervect said:
Basically, the answer is yes. All clocks on the geoid run at the same rate. See for instance http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-9/p12.html or http://hermes.aei.mpg.de/2003/1/article.xhtml (it's a long article, see the section above (21)).

This ignores tidal forces from the sun and moon, which have only a very small effect. (The effect does perturb the theoretical ideal, i.e. it hasn't been included in the above analysis).

One can derive this if one assumes that energy is conserved. The geoid is defined to be an equipotential surface in the rotating frame. Therfore, if energy is conserved, light measured in the rotating frame should have the same energy if it starts and stops at any two equipotential points, i.e. there should be no net red or blueshift between any two points on the geoid.

Energy conservation in GR can get tricky, but as long as one sticks to static geometries this argument works fine.

Thanks, the links are perfect!
 
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