Mutual inductance of bifilar winding, vs transmission line parameter

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    Mutual inductance
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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the relationship between the mutual inductance of bifilar wound coils and the inductance per meter when considered as a transmission line. Participants examine whether one can derive one from the other, addressing various factors that may influence this relationship.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if there is a relation between mutual inductance and inductance per meter for bifilar wound coils, suggesting a potential calculation link.
  • Another participant asserts that there is no direct relationship, highlighting the distinction between common mode and differential mode inductance in twisted pair lines.
  • Some participants propose that changes in parameters like twist per cm or insulation thickness that reduce inductance per meter might also affect the coupling coefficient K, potentially bringing it closer to 1.
  • A participant requests clarification on the term "inductance per meter," referencing the need to distinguish between common mode and differential mode inductance, and suggests that a sketch or clearer terminology might help.
  • It is noted that the presence of a core significantly influences mutual inductance, and a crude approximation for leakage inductance is mentioned, which assumes independence from the core.
  • Further discussion indicates that the twisted pair impedance is influenced by wire diameter and insulation type/thickness, with more twists affecting the operational wavelength but not substantially altering K.
  • One participant introduces the concept of a "transmission line transformer" in relation to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between mutual inductance and inductance per meter, with no consensus reached. Some agree on the influence of core presence and parameters affecting inductance, while others challenge the initial premise of a calculable relationship.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of the topic, including the need for clear definitions and the influence of various physical parameters on inductance and coupling coefficients. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the implications of these factors.

Swamp Thing
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Is there a relation between the mutual inductance across a pair of bifilar wound coils, and the inductance per meter of the same winding considered as a transmission line? I.e., can one calculate one from the other?
 
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No.
The twisted pair line has an impedance to differential mode signals.
The inductance of the line about the transformer core is in common mode.
 
Yet intuitively, it seems that changing something (eg twist per cm or insulation thickness) that reduces the L/m would also push the K closer to 1.
 
Swamp Thing said:
Is there a relation between the mutual inductance across a pair of bifilar wound coils, and the inductance per meter of the same winding considered as a transmission line? I.e., can one calculate one from the other?
This is a very confusingly worded question. Which "inductance per meter" did you mean? Ref @Baluncore's distinction of common mode vs. differential mode. Maybe a sketch would be in order, or a clear identification with standard jargon about which inductances you meant?

If you are comparing mutual inductance between two windings with and without a core, then no. The core has a huge influence, that's why we put it there.

There is a crude approximation for the leakage inductance (see this post for a definition), that it is independent of the core. This assumption is that it is due to flux that doesn't link to the core and that the flux that does link to the core will also link to the other winding. So all of the core parameters would then contained in the magnetizing inductance in that model. But, as I said, it's crude; as in not right but better than nothing.
 
Swamp Thing said:
Yet intuitively, it seems that changing something (eg twist per cm or insulation thickness) that reduces the L/m would also push the K nearer to 1.
The twisted pair impedance is really determined by wire diameter and insulation type/thickness. More twists simply shorten the wavelength at which the twisted pair will operate without radiative losses.

Impedance changes, due to a proportional increases in L and C, will cancel, since impedance is proportional to; √(L/C).

The K for a bifilar-wound, twisted pair, will be close to 1. More twists will make no substantial difference to K.

Once the wire helix length starts to rise steeply, more twists will slow the signal velocity slightly, since the velocity factor is proportional to; 1/√(L⋅C).

In effect, the situation you are considering, is called a "transmission line transformer".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balun#Transmission-line_transformer_type
 
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