Natural deduction (negated implication)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the logical equivalence of the proposition ¬(P→Q) and its relationship to the expression ¬P∧Q, specifically within the context of natural deduction. Participants explore how to prove ¬P∧Q from ¬(P→Q) using natural deduction techniques.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that ¬(P→Q) is equivalent to ¬P∧Q and seeks a direct proof using natural deduction.
  • Another participant disagrees with the initial claim, stating that ¬(P→Q) is equivalent to (P∧¬Q) and not ¬P∧Q, suggesting that a truth table can clarify this equivalence.
  • A participant acknowledges a typing error and clarifies that they meant to refer to ¬(P→Q)⟹(P∧¬Q).
  • Participants discuss the need for using →-elimination and ∧-introduction in the proof structure.
  • There is mention of using ¬-elimination and contradiction elimination as proof techniques, indicating their importance in constructing sub-proofs.
  • One participant suggests using ∧-introduction as the main organizing principle for the proof.
  • There is a question regarding whether a specific step in the proof is a hypothesis for contradiction, which is confirmed by another participant.
  • Participants discuss the efficiency of reaching a contradiction in the proof process, indicating variability in approach.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the equivalence of ¬(P→Q) and the expressions involving ¬P and Q. The discussion remains unresolved as multiple competing views are presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various logical symbols and proof techniques, but the discussion does not resolve the assumptions or definitions underlying the equivalences being debated.

Logic1
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The proposition ¬(P→Q) is equivalent to ¬P^Q

Does someone maybe have an idea how you can prove (directly) ¬P^Q from ¬(P→Q) by means of natural deduction? I do not manage it.

Thanks in advance!
 
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I would disagree with the problem. It's true that $\lnot(p\to q) \equiv (p\land\lnot q),$ but it is not true that $\lnot(p\to q)\equiv(\lnot p \land q)$. (A quick truth table will tell you this.) So you need to prove $\lnot(p\to q) \implies (p\land\lnot q)$ and you need to prove $(p\land\lnot q) \implies \lnot(p\to q)$.

Let's take the first one: $\lnot(p\to q) \implies (p\land\lnot q)$. What logical symbols $(\lnot, \land, \lor, \to, \equiv)$ are present/absent in the conclusion versus the premise? Well, we see that there's a $\to$ in the premise, but not in the conclusion, and there's a $\land$ in the conclusion that's not in the premise. So we might well need $\to$ elimination, as well as $\land$ introduction. You see how that can help you structure your proof?
 
Thank Ackbach!

I made a typing error I think. I meant ¬(p→q)⟹(p∧¬q) of course.

To apply the ∧-introduction, I need to get P and ¬Q. But I do not see yet which steps I can start with to make the →-elimination possible (it's clearly not applicable immediately).
 
Logic said:
Thank Ackbach!

I made a typing error I think. I meant ¬(p→q)⟹(p∧¬q) of course.

To apply the ∧-introduction, I need to get P and ¬Q. But I do not see yet which steps I can start with to make the →-elimination possible (it's clearly not applicable immediately).

Right, exactly. I would think about using $\lnot$ elimination. It's a powerful method, because you can construct sub-proofs by assuming anything you want. Don't forget contradiction elimination, where you can conclude anything you want from a contradiction. That's an important proof technique in subproofs. What outline do you have?
 
Here's what I mean by outline, and this is what I would recommend for you to do. Basically, you're going to use $\land$ intro as the main organizing principle.

View attachment 7751
 

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Ackbach said:
Here's what I mean by outline, and this is what I would recommend for you to do. Basically, you're going to use $\land$ intro as the main organizing principle.

Is step 2 hypothesis for contradiction??
 
solakis said:
Is step 2 hypothesis for contradiction??

Yep, that's right!
 
Ackbach said:
Yep, that's right!

Then on the 6th step we should have ~~P and not on the 8th step
 
solakis said:
Then on the 6th step we should have ~~P and not on the 8th step

Well, that just depends on how many steps it takes you to get a contradiction. No doubt you are more efficient at it than I am.
 

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