Need to understand & manipulate EPS foam extrusion & production

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on understanding and manipulating the extrusion and production of EPS (expanded polystyrene) foam, focusing on the chemical processes involved, the appearance of defects, and the control of foam properties. Participants express a desire to learn about both the theoretical and practical aspects of foam extrusion, including relevant terminology and resources for study.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks guidance on what to study to understand foam extrusion as a chemical process and how to control the properties of EPS foam.
  • Another participant suggests looking for books on the subject, indicating that there may be relevant literature available.
  • Several participants discuss the difficulty of finding specific resources and the potential need for more detailed information than what is readily available online.
  • There are mentions of specific terms related to polymer engineering and reactions, though some participants express frustration with the lack of new suggestions.
  • One participant raises a question about whether the discussion should focus on practical engineering or theoretical modeling of material flow in the molding process.
  • Another participant mentions that the chemical activity is largely finished before the shape-forming process begins, suggesting a need for clarity on the original question.
  • There is a discussion about the modeling of foam flow and the potential use of computational fluid dynamics (CFD) for this purpose, though it is noted that this could be complex and require validation through experimentation.
  • Participants also discuss thermoforming as a secondary production process and its relation to the extrusion process.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to study EPS foam extrusion, and multiple competing views remain regarding the focus on practical versus theoretical aspects. The discussion also highlights uncertainty about the availability of detailed information and the complexity of modeling foam behavior.

Contextual Notes

Participants express limitations in their search for information, noting that existing resources may not meet their specific needs. There is also an acknowledgment of the complexity involved in modeling foam behavior and the potential need for experimental validation.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in polymer engineering, materials science, and the production processes of foam materials, particularly those seeking to deepen their understanding of EPS foam extrusion and its associated challenges.

nour hashem
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Hi

I was wondering where I should look and what specifically should I study if i am trying to understand foam extrusion as a chemical process. , why certain defects appear in foam products considering that they are as a result of some extrusion or chemical mistakes. in short, i want to know enough to be able to a control how EPS foam behaves/shapes (to obtain certain properties in desired coefficients/amounts if possible).

I would like to know as well how much studying (time) would this take, if anyone knows, and the level of difficulty of the task.

Thanks.
 
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nour hashem said:
Hi

I was wondering where I should look and what specifically should I study if i am trying to understand foam extrusion as a chemical process. , why certain defects appear in foam products considering that they are as a result of some extrusion or chemical mistakes. in short, i want to know enough to be able to a control how EPS foam behaves/shapes (to obtain certain properties in desired coefficients/amounts if possible).

I would like to know as well how much studying (time) would this take, if anyone knows, and the level of difficulty of the task.

Thanks.
Welcome to the PF. :smile:

What have you found so far in your Google searches?
 
Perhaps someone has written a book on the subject?
 
berkeman said:
Welcome to the PF. :smile:

What have you found so far in your Google searches?
Nothing relevant really at least Not at the level I wanted/expected. Maybe I am using the wrong terms, after all I am not a chemical/materials engineer. That's all I know and I came here seeking help from those who are knowledgeable in relevant fields of study.
 
CWatters said:
Perhaps someone has written a book on the subject?
Maybe, but where do you think I should look? And which terms should I use to look for that ? Can you suggest any names ??
 
Any more suggestions ??
 
nour hashem said:
Any more suggestions ??
Just mentioning terms that might be related is enough
 
  • #10
Polymer engineering, polymer reactions etc
 
  • #11
CWatters said:
Polymer engineering, polymer reactions etc
You are just using the term "polymer" in different combinations. Please Don't get me wrong I appreciate your help, but you are not adding anything with your latter suggestions/terms.
 
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  • #12
nour hashem said:
You are just using the term "polymer" in different combinations. Plz Don't get me wrong I appreciate your help, but you are not adding anything with your latter suggestions/terms.
Do you know terms other than polymer that might be related ?
 
  • #15
What more do you need to know ?

Do you want information about the practical engineering of the moulding equipment or theoretical modelling of the material flow in the moulding process ?
 
  • #16
Nidum said:
What more do you need to know ?

Do you want information about the practical engineering of the moulding equipment or theoretical modelling of the material flow in the moulding process ?
The latter would be helpful, I think. But I don't think this is enough on its own if you consider my purpose (refer to the question above if you haven't done so already).

Anyways, can you help me with the latter suggestion of yours "theoretical modelling of the material flow in the moulding process" either by suggesting names/links, giving specialized terms or informing me on the topic yourself ??
Thank!
 
  • #17
In all the basic product making processes the chemical activity is largely finished before the shape forming process begins so I don't entirely understand the question ?

Anyway the shape forming processes all involve variants of the injection moulding principle - there's lot's of information on that available .

I think that the flow of an expanding / cooling / setting flow of foam in a duct could be modeled somehow but it's not going to be easy . Probably within the scope of CFD but a lot of work needed and a lot of validation by experiment .
 
  • #18
Nidum said:
In all the basic product making processes the chemical activity is largely finished before the shape forming process begins so I don't entirely understand the question ?

Anyway the shape forming processes all involve variants of the injection moulding principle - there's lot's of information on that available .

I think that the flow of an expanding / cooling / setting flow of foam in a duct could be modeled somehow but it's not going to be easy . Probably within the scope of CFD but a lot of work needed and a lot of validation by experiment .
How/where should I start sir ?

Also what is CFD ?
 
  • #20
Nidum said:
In all the basic product making processes the chemical activity is largely finished before the shape forming process begins so I don't entirely understand the question ?

Anyway the shape forming processes all involve variants of the injection moulding principle - there's lot's of information on that available .

I think that the flow of an expanding / cooling / setting flow of foam in a duct could be modeled somehow but it's not going to be easy . Probably within the scope of CFD but a lot of work needed and a lot of validation by experiment .
Also, from my experience, not all shape forming processes involve injection moulding. I have seen thermoforming(not sure I spelled it correctly) machines.
 
  • #21
nour hashem said:
Also what is CFD ?

http://www.solidworks.co.uk/sw/products/simulation/computational-fluid-dynamics.htm
 
  • #22
Thermoforming is usually a secondary production process . Pre moulded sheets of EP are heated and pressed in dies to form generally simple shapes .
 
  • #23
  • #24
Nidum said:
Thermoforming is usually a secondary production process . Pre moulded sheets of EP are heated and pressed in dies to form generally simple shapes .
I have seen extruders that take in small-sized marble-like chemicals and transform them into straight long sheets of foam. Not sure if this is what you are talking about though.

If that's not what you were talking about then I probably didn't get what you wrote

Thanks!
 
  • #25
first-phase-color-by-id.png


Not one of mine - this comes from the SymScale Library - but it shows modelling of plastic beads being fed into a plastisicer .
 

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  • #26
Nidum said:
View attachment 218288

Not one of mine - this comes from the SymScale Library - but it shows modelling of plastic beads being fed into a plastisicer .
Is there a specific program or is it a machine that produces such image/analysis
 
  • #27
Nidum said:
View attachment 218288

Not one of mine - this comes from the SymScale Library - but it shows modelling of plastic beads being fed into a plastisicer .
Also, what should I study to be able to understand, analyze and manipulate such things ??
 
  • #28
Perhaps search Google Books for

Blowing Agents and Foaming Processes (Conference Proceedings)

Looks like a bunch of papers on EPS and other similar foams.
 
  • #29
Hi, You should contact technical people at BASF or Monsanto who developed and manage production quality and applications. Simulation of melt flow is complex but well established wrt mold design to improve economics. Foam properties are closely related to foam density; compressive strength etc. So look at extrusion, injection molding and block molding of EPS and molding of the bead (into fruit boxes etc.). The tech sheets are usually readily available. If stumped talk to a local user of EPS raw materials or your local Plastics Institute. There are not books collecting this vast material in one place.
 

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