Neglecting terms in a Lagrangian

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the treatment of quark masses in a Lagrangian, specifically addressing the implications of neglecting these terms when they are considered small. The context includes theoretical considerations related to symmetry in quantum chromodynamics (QCD) and the Dirac equation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a Lagrangian and seeks a rigorous justification for neglecting the mass terms when they are small.
  • Another participant suggests that the reasoning is derived from the Dirac equation.
  • Some participants argue that in physics, small quantities are often approximated as zero, which is applicable here.
  • However, a counterpoint is raised that neglecting quark masses alters the symmetry structure of the theory, indicating that there may not be a smooth limit as quark masses approach zero.
  • Further discussion highlights that while setting quark masses to zero is a common approximation, it is important to consider the implications for the symmetry of the theory.
  • One participant connects the discussion to spontaneous symmetry breaking in QCD, suggesting that the approximation is motivated by this broader context.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of chiral symmetry breaking in QCD, explaining how non-zero quark masses introduce small explicit symmetry breaking terms and relate this to the mass of Goldstone bosons (pions).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of neglecting quark mass terms. While some agree on the common practice of approximating small quantities as zero, others emphasize the potential consequences for the symmetry structure of the theory, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations regarding the assumptions made when neglecting terms in the Lagrangian, particularly concerning the impact on symmetry and the behavior of the theory as quark masses approach zero.

Kyleric
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Say we have a Lagrangian \mathcal{L}=\bar{u}i\kern+0.15em /\kern-0.65em Du+\bar{d}i\kern+0.15em /\kern-0.65em Dd-m_u\bar{u}u-m_d\bar{d}d,
where u and d are fermions. In Peskin&Schroeder p. 667 it says that if m_u and m_d are very small, we can neglect the last two terms of the Lagrangian.

I'd like to know a somewhat rigorous reason for this.
 
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Ok nevermind, it's just from the Dirac equation.
 
In physics, quantities which are small compared to others are simply set to zero as an approximation. This is exactly what happens here.
 
The problem is that setting the quark masses to zero changes the symmetry structure of the theory. Therefore for some effects there is no smooth limit to mq → 0.
 
Polyrhythmic said:
In physics, quantities which are small compared to others are simply set to zero as an approximation. This is exactly what happens here.

True for numbers, but the components of the Lagrangian are operators.

tom.stoer said:
The problem is that setting the quark masses to zero changes the symmetry structure of the theory. Therefore for some effects there is no smooth limit to mq → 0.

Yes that's what I was thinking also. But they took the approximation as a step towards a discussion about spontaneous symmetry breaking in QCD, so it was very well motivated.
 
In QCD the chiral symmetry breaking results in massless Goldstone bosons (pions) and non-zero quark masses add small explicit symmetry breaking terms; what you get is something like

m_\pi^2 = (m_u + m_d)\frac{M^2}{f_\pi}

where M is related to the quark condensate which acts as order parameter
 

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