Net thermal radiation from an object outside at night

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around modeling the cooling of an object, specifically a sheet of glass, due to thermal radiation when placed outside at night. Participants explore the net radiation equation, which accounts for both the object's thermal radiation and the downwelling radiation from the sky, focusing on the implications of absorptivity and emissivity in the context of thermal radiation loss.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the net radiation formula and questions the origin of the squared ratio of emissivity to absorptivity in the equation.
  • Another participant agrees that there seems to be an inconsistency in the equation, suggesting that the terms should have equal forms and proposing to explore alternative formulas or approaches.
  • A third participant emphasizes the need for clarity regarding the definitions and units of the terms involved in the equation, indicating that without this information, it is challenging to assess the validity of the formula.
  • Further contributions clarify that the units used in the equation are consistent with SI units, and the term "net radiation" is discussed in the context of thermal radiation in a specific wavelength band.
  • One participant notes that the formula may be derived for a particular situation, highlighting the difference between ambient air temperature and sky temperature.
  • Another participant challenges the precision of the term "net radiation," prompting a discussion about the need for clarity on the units and context of the radiation being described.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying degrees of uncertainty regarding the formula's derivation and its components. There is no consensus on the origin of the squared terms or the implications of the definitions used in the equation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of understanding the assumptions and simplifications made in the original source of the equation, which is currently inaccessible to one participant. The discussion highlights the need for clarity on the definitions and units of the terms involved in the radiation equation.

sian130
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
I am trying to model the cooling of an object (for example, a sheet of glass) placed outside at night. At the moment I am only considering heat loss by radiation.

I know that the net radiation from the object will be:

Rnet = Robj - Rsky

where:
Rnet = the net radiation from the object
Robj = the total thermal radiation from the object
Rsky = the thermal downwelling radiation from the sky

I have come across a formula which does the above, but also takes into consideration the absorptivity of the sheet of glass at the 8-14μm wavelength (I have only considered emissivity of the glass in this wavelength as I'm only concerned with thermal radiation heat loss to the sky).

The formula is:

Rnet = A((εobj2obj2)σTobj4 - εskyσTamb4)

where:
εobj = the emissivity of the object at 8-14μm
αobj = the absorptivity of the object at 8-14μm
εsky = the emissivity of the sky
Tobj = the temperature of the object
Tamb4 = the ambient air temperature
A = the area of the object

What I would like to know is where does the εobj2obj2 bit come from? I know if I wasn't considering absorptivity then it would just be εobj, but why are εobj and αobj now squared? I have since lost where I saw it, and I'm pretty sure there wasn't an explanation there anyway. I have searched all over for a derivation of it but have had no luck.

Can anyone help?
 
Science news on Phys.org
I am not familiar with this, but I would agree that something is off here:

Since the eqn is Rnet= Robj - Rsky

these terms should have equal forms.

But as you pointed out there is a squared ratio only on one term.
My guess is that it may be simplified, but who knows.

So I can't really answer your question, but I can say that I agree with it.
Perhaps try to find a different formula / approach to use?

I did find this though - a program for modelling thermal radiation. Looks like it is free to use, and mentions finding radiation from any given objects of given temperature. Maybe it will help. Here's the link http://www.fire-engineering-software.com/tra.html

good luck
 
Last edited:
Without knowing how the terms are defined, and what units they have, it's impossible to say what is going on - "I found it on the internet somewhere" isn't very helpful. :wink: What units does each term in this equation have, and does the result ("net radiation" is not precise either) make sense?
 
Thanks for the link, elegysix.

JeffKoch - my problem in finding the source of the equation stems from the fact that it was found in a Solar Energy journal somewhere but I can no longer gain access to Solar Energy journals via my university account. Hence why I'm trying to find it by other means. I thought perhaps it may have been used elsewhere but now I'm beginning to realize that perhaps the assumptions and simplifications made in the particular journal article are more important than I'd first thought!

As for the units, they are all SI units, i.e. T in Kelvin, Stefan-Boltzmann in W(m^−2)(K−4). Emissivity and absorptivity are dimensionless. Net radiation is therefore in units of W. So the equation is dimensionally correct as far as I can tell.

What do you mean about "net radiation" not being precise? By net radiation, I mean the net thermal radiation (i.e. primarily in the 8-14micro m wavelength band) leaving the surface of the glass, as opposed to the thermal radiation leaving the glass before one has taken into account the downwelling thermal radiation from the sky.
 
The formula is:

Rnet = A((εobj2/αobj2)σTobj4 - εskyσTamb4)

where:
εobj = the emissivity of the object at 8-14μm
αobj = the absorptivity of the object at 8-14μm
εsky = the emissivity of the sky
Tobj = the temperature of the object
Tamb4 = the ambient air temperature
A = the area of the object

Your equation is most likely derived for a particluar situation since it has a ratio of emissivity/ absortivity, which is what I have no idea, and the ambiant air temperature rather than the temperature of the sky ( which is different than the sky temperature ),
 
sian130 said:
What do you mean about "net radiation" not being precise? By net radiation, I mean the net thermal radiation (i.e. primarily in the 8-14micro m wavelength band) leaving the surface of the glass, as opposed to the thermal radiation leaving the glass before one has taken into account the downwelling thermal radiation from the sky.

Think, man. Net thermal radiation per unit time? Per unit area? Per Hz? Per Sr? Integrated over any of these quantities? Photons or joules? What units do each of the terms have, and does the result make sense? Find a book on this stuff, there are many - for example the very useful one by Rybicki and Lightman.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
18K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K