Neutrinos back into the picture?

[beatrix kiddo]

nereid, it's going to take a lot more than what u think u are capable of presenting on this thread. and "HAS failED"? u make it sound as if our theory has actually been proven false. all u guys can do is present me with things einstein said and the experiments preformed and the list goes on. u think u have officially proven this theory wrong, but so far u haven't given any exact evidence that directly states where I'm wrong.
nereid, the first test is logic. the second test is where i buy all this equipment, come to ur house, set up a neutrino detector in ur bathroom, and prefrom all these experiments and u can stand and watch, ok? we can even test that whole neutrino mag. flux idea u introduced in the old thread, just to see if ur right!
it's OBVIOUS i can't exactly test this thing, nereid. i am 15 and my resources are sadly limited. the only part of the neutrino detector i can supply is the water.. and it's not even heavy so that's going to make it even harder to detect them. geez. but if i did have all the resources, equipment, etc. me and my team of japanese super geniuses would be able to prove my theory. but until then i will keep searching for the undoubtedly accumulating evidence that backs this theory up.

 

[Math Is Hard]

...me and my team of japanese super geniuses ..

What IS the going rate for a team of Japanese super geniuses? That can't be cheap!

 

[beatrix kiddo]

i know.. that's why I'm about to get a job at mcdonalds... ok?!

 

[chroot]

u think u have officially proven this theory wrong, but so far u haven't given any exact evidence that directly states where I'm wrong.

There are many, many, many easy experiments that prove that a push theory of gravity is wrong. Many of them require nothing more than a bathroom scale, or the solar system. (You can a simple calculation of the way the solar system WOULD look, compared to how it DOES look.) Neither of these sorts of experiments require any serious money. You presumably already have a bathroom scale, and the solar system is pretty much a free lunch. Several experiments have already been proposed in this thread -- why haven't you done them? What are you waiting for? Don't snivel and whine about how expensive equipment is -- the equipment you need to prove your theory wrong is even simpler than the equipment Newton had.

- Warren

 

[ArmoSkater87]

the funniest thing about that thread was how badly u got owned in it... THAT was funny...

lol! I GOT OWNED? I don't recall a single time that i was disproven in any way for why i think your theory is wrong. While you have been disproven in more ways and by more people that i just don't know how to compredend how you still persist with your belief despite even admins and mentors telling you that your theory isn't possible...im not even going to say how much more physics they know compared to you. In other words, you and your friend urtalkinstupid are the ones who got owned by pretty much everyone that goes agaist your theory.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

chroot my bathroom scale isn't sensitive enough for that. but i can go to the local vets office and ask to use their really sensitive dog scale. so there's a start! and i could measure if i jump higher at night! oh now it's really getting good! chroot, ur a genius! all i have to do is some amateur experiments and that should put all of ur minds at ease about my theory!
u know that's not going to be enough. but i'll do it anyways, since I've been "whining" about it. so right now i weigh 113 (lbs). all i have to do is see if i weigh a little less than that at night...
but even if it does show i weigh less, that won't necessarily mean I'm right. i really want to get some results from neutrino detectors and such.
and i read that if gravity was a pull all galaxies would look like doughnuts. and that makes sense... http://www.pioneer-net.com/~jessep/why.html can u refute this?? and hey u can win money too! i know armo thinks this dude is crazy, but if u can silence him, there's a serious reward...

 

[beatrix kiddo]

armo, who was it that kept saying, "i really THINK that's too high to be the energy for a neutrino" hahahaha. so i had to give u 2 sources to show u i didn't make that up. and if i was getting owned so bad, would i have even bothered to come back and write in this thread? armo i guess u think because CHROOT says something, i should automatically give up what i know is right. just because he's an admin.. who's admining the admins?? i get in trouble for something i didn't do and now I'm half way to getting banned for 21 days. (look at my crappy warning level!) i don't know if my warning level has anything to do with this but I'm constantly having to sign in, every few minutes which really sux. and u also can't expect me to take chroot seriously if he comes here to TD and starts talking down to me. should admins do this? i mean, chroot is supposed to be understanding and trying to "help" me. instead he tells me i don't know my "ass from a tensor" and then slaps me with a 7 point warning level! what happened to not getting personal. this is so backwards...

 

[Math Is Hard]

so right now i weigh 113 (lbs). all i have to do is see if i weigh a little less than that at night...

It would be more scientific if you would weigh something that wasn't subject to fluctuations in weight. If you eat dinner or go to the bathroom between now and your next weight recording you will almost certainly throw off your calculations.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

i know.. but chroot says that i should test the experiments proposed on the thread, and that was one of them so...

 

[Brad_Ad23]

I'm also curious as to how a push theory can explain how light bends around massive objects. I mean in your push model would not the neutrinos knock the light passing near a star away from the star and not towards it. Not only that but how exactly would neutrinos affect the path of photons?

 

[ArmoSkater87]

armo, who was it that kept saying, "i really THINK that's too high to be the energy for a neutrino" hahahaha. so i had to give u 2 sources to show u i didn't make that up. and if i was getting owned so bad, would i have even bothered to come back and write in this thread? armo i guess u think because CHROOT says something, i should automatically give up what i know is right. just because he's an admin.. who's admining the admins?? i get in trouble for something i didn't do and now I'm half way to getting banned for 21 days. (look at my crappy warning level!) i don't know if my warning level has anything to do with this but I'm constantly having to sign in, every few minutes which really sux. and u also can't expect me to take chroot seriously if he comes here to TD and starts talking down to me. should admins do this? i mean, chroot is supposed to be understanding and trying to "help" me. instead he tells me i don't know my "ass from a tensor" and then slaps me with a 7 point warning level! what happened to not getting personal. this is so backwards...

Beatrix, the fact that I said "THINK" means i wasnt sure, so there was no proving me right or wrong in that case. Besides, i said several times (and so did many others) that neutrinos don't interact almost at all, meaning it doesn't matter if they have how much energy you say they have. The point is that they don't interact enough to cause a gravitational force, that has been my argument all along and you havnt been able to defend your theory against that in any way. Even in sources that you or Stupid gave me said how little they interact.

 

[Nereid]

nereid, it's going to take a lot more than what u think u are capable of presenting on this thread. and "HAS failED"? u make it sound as if our theory has actually been proven false. all u guys can do is present me with things einstein said and the experiments preformed and the list goes on. u think u have officially proven this theory wrong, but so far u haven't given any exact evidence that directly states where I'm wrong.
nereid, the first test is logic. the second test is where i buy all this equipment, come to ur house, set up a neutrino detector in ur bathroom, and prefrom all these experiments and u can stand and watch, ok? we can even test that whole neutrino mag. flux idea u introduced in the old thread, just to see if ur right!
it's OBVIOUS i can't exactly test this thing, nereid. i am 15 and my resources are sadly limited. the only part of the neutrino detector i can supply is the water.. and it's not even heavy so that's going to make it even harder to detect them. geez. but if i did have all the resources, equipment, etc. me and my team of japanese super geniuses would be able to prove my theory. but until then i will keep searching for the undoubtedly accumulating evidence that backs this theory up.

As you know your idea quite well, I can suggest a zero cost start - do a thought experiment, and make it quantitative.

For example, 'according to the s/k neutrino/gravity pull idea [or whatever name you chose to give it], an object which weighs 100kg on my bathroom scales at noon on 21 December, 2004 at (location), will weigh [insert the results of your calculation here] at midnight later that same day' For good measure, you could add date/times and locations which show the effect of the Moon, the distance from a nuclear reactor, latitude (e.g. the effects of the non-spherical shape of the Earth), and so on.

My guess is it'd take you less time to come up with these predictions that it would to post to this thread over the next two days.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

brad.. of course neutrinos play a part in the gravitational bending of light... http://gravity.ontheinter.net/ click the link that says neutrinos bend light or something... i don't feel like describing it to u right now..
armo-ahhh! i have given u book sources that say neutinos are so numerous that they can in fact affect gravity in the solar system. (the book agrees with einsteins model of gravity, but it still says neutrios play a part in gravity) I'm taking it further and saying they are the only cause of "gravity"... i have many sources to defend my theory and i have used them against u and u couldn't refute them. i'll re-cite if u want me to...

 

[beatrix kiddo]

My guess is it'd take you less time to come up with these predictions that it would to post to this thread over the next two days.

huh?!

but thanks for the info on how i can do this little experiment... god. from now on I'm going to have to tell u ppl when I'm being sarcastic so no one gets confused.
and I've decided to call the push theory "the theory that pwns everyone else's". i think it's catchy!

 

[Math Is Hard]

"the theory that pwns everyone else's". i think it's catchy!

what does pwns mean?

 

[beatrix kiddo]

pawns and owns... or was ur question merely sarcasm? if so nvm...

 

[Math Is Hard]

pawns and owns... or was ur question merely sarcasm? if so nvm...

No, not at all. I'm just not very familiar with modern slang. I thought perhaps it was an acronym.

 

[ArmoSkater87]

what does pawn mean? The only definitions i know is...that a pawn is the weakest piece in chess, and also that (verb) to pawn is to trade something in for money.

 

[russ_watters]

Nereid's challenge is a reasonable one: give us a specific, quantatative prediction of your theory.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

hmmm armo.. i dunno. the chess pawn of course! because that makes the most sense... omg
this gets difficult russ, because i would need to find the force exerted by the neutrino flux during the day, then the force at night and then i'd need the difference. also, i need to know the direct relationship between the neutrino absorption rate and an object's density because this is what determines an object's weight. so, when i figure all of these things out, u'll be the first to know my specific quanta- oh, quantitative prediction. just so u know, I'm not about to make some random prediction. that's not what a real physicist would do...

 

[ArmoSkater87]

Jesus Beatrix, i was only asking, u don't have to mean about it.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

dude, armo I'm sorry. i have a real bad migraine so i don't mean to be *****y...

 

[beatrix kiddo]

Cool Automatic Censorship!

 

[Chronos]

this gets difficult russ, because i would need to find the force exerted by the neutrino flux during the day, then the force at night and then i'd need the difference. also, i need to know the direct relationship between the neutrino absorption rate and an object's density because this is what determines an object's weight. so, when i figure all of these things out, u'll be the first to know my specific quanta- oh, quantitative prediction. just so u know, I'm not about to make some random prediction. that's not what a real physicist would do...

Agreed. No real physicist would propose a theory, much less a prediction based on that theory, without offering their peers evidence the assumptions used are valid.

Footnote. 'pwns' is a slang term meaning 'I am so in control of you, I could sell you at a pawn shop.'

 

[ArmoSkater87]

beatrix, if u an account for AIM or MSN, then can i have them?

 

[beatrix kiddo]

hahaha.. whatever chronos

armo its medijuju07 at aim

 

[Entropy]

This is degrating into personal attacks like the last thread... Let's ends this and agree to disagree because we're just going in circles. Where is Tom when you need him?

 

[beatrix kiddo]

entropy, don't say that! the LAST thing anyone wants is tom to come here and stop what is becoming my social life...

 

[Alkatran]

I'd just like to point out that you will weigh slightly less at night because you are slightly farther from the sun. I doubt this difference is much at all, but it is there.
*edit woops, got it backwards, see post 2 down*


And I really think that you need to stop and think before you blindly accept that guy's theory that everything is donut shaped.

His argument for it is a 1 dimensional model where the center object is given an initial speed. Of course there's going to be separation into two clusters! And, at the least, why would the final shape be a donut and not a SHELL?? By his own arguments you can't have it centralized (the ring is centralized).

 

[russ_watters]

this gets difficult russ, because i would need to find the force exerted by the neutrino flux during the day, then the force at night and then i'd need the difference. also, i need to know the direct relationship between the neutrino absorption rate and an object's density because this is what determines an object's weight. so, when i figure all of these things out, u'll be the first to know my specific quanta- oh, quantitative prediction. just so u know, I'm not about to make some random prediction. that's not what a real physicist would do...

Oh, ok - so you have an idea, not even an hypothesis yet. Lotta work to do before you can claim any sort of validity. In our opinion, your idea is flawed (and not just a little bit flawed). If you want to convince us otherwise, you need to develop it into a real hypothesis at the very least.

I'd just like to point out that you will weigh slightly less at night because you are slightly farther from the sun. I doubt this difference is much at all, but it is there.

No, at night you'd be walking on your ceiling because the sun is below you, pushing up.

 

[Alkatran]

No, at night you'd be walking on your ceiling because the sun is below you, pushing up.

Woops! I sortof got off track for a moment.

In the day time the sun pulls you from the earth, and at the night the sun pulls you into the earth. So you'll actually weigh a bit MORE at night.

 

[russ_watters]

Woops! I sortof got off track for a moment.

In the day time the sun pulls you from the earth, and at the night the sun pulls you into the earth. So you'll actually weigh a bit MORE at night.

Oh, you meant with the current accepted theory. I was talking about what "push" gravity might predict if anyone ever got around to making a real prediction.

 

[Alkatran]

Oh, you meant with the current accepted theory. I was talking about what "push" gravity might predict if anyone ever got around to making a real prediction.

Yes, I was worried that he would get a super-sensitive scale, confirm there was a weight difference, and come back to us talking about how this proved the theory right.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

Yes, I was worried that he would get a super-sensitive scale, confirm there was a weight difference, and come back to us talking about how this proved the theory right.

no.. sorry guys.. i haven't obtained a super-sensitive scale yet, but when i do the experiment commences! also, tran i kinda already said that if there was a weight difference in the object, that wouldn't necessarily mean I'm right...

u know that's not going to be enough. but i'll do it anyways, since I've been "whining" about it. so right now i weigh 113 (lbs). all i have to do is see if i weigh a little less than that at night...
but even if it does show i weigh less, that won't necessarily mean I'm right. i really want to get some results from neutrino detectors and such.

i was being sarcastic about weighing myself, because that changes with daily actvities, but i can do it with a book or my ps2 or something...

 

[Alkatran]

no.. sorry guys.. i haven't obtained a super-sensitive scale yet, but when i do the experiment commences! also, tran i kinda already said that if there was a weight difference in the object, that wouldn't necessarily mean I'm right...

i was being sarcastic about weighing myself, because that changes with daily actvities, but i can do it with a book or my ps2 or something...

By the current theory, you should weigh slightly more. By your theory you should weight slightly less. We'll see who's right.

 

[chroot]

It doesn't need to be super-sensitive. Any mechanism that's able to generate 170 lbs. of force pushing me into the floor is going to demonstrate variations large enough to be detected with a bathroom scale.

After all, as others have said: if neutrinos from the Sun push me into the Earth during the day, why don't they push me off the Earth at night?

- Warren

 

[beatrix kiddo]

because there are also neutrinos pushing u down on the Earth at night

 

[chroot]

From where?

- Warren

 

[chroot]

And indeed, if there were neutrinos pushing you from every direction at once, there'd be no gravity at all -- the net force would be zero.

- Warren

 

[Alkatran]

because there are also neutrinos pushing u down on the Earth at night

Where are they coming from? How far into the Earth do they penetrate? Do they pass all the way through the earth? If so why don't they cancel out the effect of the sun? If they don't make it all the way through, why don't we weigh (a lot) less underground? Why are the other planets keeping orbit if all these neutrinos happen to be perfectly lined up to keep gravity uniform on earth? Why doesn't this incoming gravity change as we rotate around the sun? If it's focused on the sun why are we being pushed down when on the sides of the earth?

Want me to keep going?

 

[beatrix kiddo]

the neutrinos come from cosmic rays, other planets, other stars.. they travel at nearly light speed, so we get a constant flow of these neutrino waves... and since objects absorb them, it's not like they're directly pushing everything down with the same force, so the net force isn't zero...

 

[beatrix kiddo]

i just read ur questions and i'll answer them but u can keep going if u wish

 

[Alkatran]

Oh, here's the best argument:
If the force on the Earth is uniform on all sides, why is it curving around the sun? Why does the force from FAR OFF places change radicly when we go on the other side of the sun, even though we have moved very little relative to them?

 

[chroot]

the neutrinos come from cosmic rays, other planets, other stars.. they travel at nearly light speed, so we get a constant flow of these neutrino waves... and since objects absorb them, it's not like they're directly pushing everything down with the same force, so the net force isn't zero...

Planets and stars are grouped into the galaxy in a non-uniform way. As you can see when you walk outside at night and look at the milky way, the stars and planets in our galaxy are organized more or less in the form of a disc.

If the neutrinos from these planets and galaxies are pushing on us and create gravity, then we'd have some serious problems:

1) We are near the edge of the galaxy. We are, at any rate, nowhere near its center. Thus the number of neutrinos hitting us from outside the galaxy would be much much smaller than the number hitting us from inside the galaxy. We'd be under a terrible imbalance and we would be rapidly pushed out of the galaxy.

2) Even if we were at the center of the galaxy, the force would be symmetric around galactic longitude. You would be weightless in every direction.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

What we can't figure out, beatrix, is how all the other planets and stars know to push us one direction into the Earth at noon (away from the sun), and then to instead push us the other way at midnight (toward the sun). Six months later, the situation is reversed, though, and all the other planets and stars would have to somehow switch gears and send their neutrinos the other way.

How do you respond?

- Warren

 

[beatrix kiddo]

Where are they coming from?

answered

How far into the Earth do they penetrate?

some pass straight through

Do they pass all the way through the earth?

answered

If so why don't they cancel out the effect of the sun?

they weren't absorbed

If they don't make it all the way through, why don't we weigh (a lot) less underground?

they do make it, objects in the Earth absorb them so u don't weigh a lot less

Why are the other planets keeping orbit if all these neutrinos happen to be perfectly lined up to keep gravity uniform on earth?

other planets maintain their orbit because the neutrinos are lined up for them too.

Why doesn't this incoming gravity change as we rotate around the sun?

distance isn't an issue with the push theory...

If it's focused on the sun why are we being pushed down when on the sides of the earth?

answered: the sun isn't the only supplier of neutrinos

 

[Alkatran]

answered

1: some pass straight through

2: answered

3: they weren't absorbed

4: they do make it, objects in the Earth absorb them so u don't weigh a lot less

5: other planets maintain their orbit because the neutrinos are lined up for them too.

6: distance isn't an issue with the push theory...

7: answered: the sun isn't the only supplier of neutrinos

1: Alright, so you're saying the absorption rate is low? That means that people on the other side of the planet are being affect by almost the same amount of neutrinos as we are, are being push away by these neutrinos, and are almost weightless. Also, the moon isn't orbiting the Earth because it has almost the same net force everywhere.
2: See 1
3: They have just as much chance of being absorbed by us as they do by the people in China. If most pass right through, they get almost the same force.
4: See 1 again.
5: Ok, so we have a sphere with infinite amount of centers... oh wait, that's IMPOSSIBLE. If the neutrinos are lined up for jupiter, it won't orbit the sun. If it's line up for the sun jupiter's moons orbit the sun and not jupiter!

6: Distance IS a factor. The father you are from the sun the more spread out the neutrinos coming from the sun are.

7: And these other suppliers change radicly summer to winter?

 

[beatrix kiddo]

note: the galaxies spin rapidly, so the objects along the edge aren't necessarily pushed out
it's not direct pushing though.. just like in einstein's model, pull is a term of convenience and so is push... the neutrinos are absorbed...
bodies generate neutrinos on all sides, warren. they don't "know" to push us one way or another. the earth, and everything else, is constantly being pelted with neutrinos. these neutrios get absorbed and that's what we percieve as gravity..

 

[chroot]

beatrix,

I love how you simply say 'answered' as if that's enough to convince us you're right. You certainly haven't answered to our satisfaction, and it really does seem to us as though you're just waving your hands and sticking your fingers in your ears while trying to dodge the obvious, glaring problems with your theory by inventing yet another amazing coindence.

- Warren

 

[Alkatran]

note: the galaxies spin rapidly, so the objects along the edge aren't necessarily pushed out
it's not direct pushing though.. just like in einstein's model, pull is a term of convenience and so is push... the neutrinos are absorbed...
bodies generate neutrinos on all sides, warren. they don't "know" to push us one way or another. the earth, and everything else, is constantly being pelted with neutrinos. these neutrios get absorbed and that's what we percieve as gravity..

So let me get this straight. Because the galaxy is spinning, creating a centrifuge (sp?) force OUTWARDS, we aren't flying off?