Neutrinos back into the picture?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties and implications of neutrinos, particularly focusing on the push theory of gravity, which suggests that neutrinos may exert a force that contributes to gravitational effects. Participants explore the detection of different neutrino flavors, their masses, and the potential impact on gravitational theories. The conversation includes both theoretical considerations and challenges to the proposed ideas.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe neutrinos as fundamental particles with three flavors: electron, muon, and tau neutrinos, each with distinct properties and masses.
  • One participant claims that only electron neutrinos are detected by current methods, raising questions about the fate of the remaining neutrinos emitted by the sun.
  • There is a proposal that the differing masses and energies of neutrinos could lead to a push theory of gravity, suggesting that tau neutrinos, being more massive, might exert a greater force than electron neutrinos.
  • Another participant questions the feasibility of tau neutrinos having a mass of 31 MeV, expressing skepticism about their interaction with matter.
  • Some participants argue that the energy from tau neutrinos is insufficient to account for gravitational effects, citing their rarity and the conditions under which they are produced.
  • Concerns are raised about the previous thread being closed due to personal conflicts, with a call for a more respectful discussion environment.
  • One participant suggests that during solar eclipses, the moon's gravitational effects remain consistent, questioning how the push theory would account for this phenomenon.
  • There is a mention of external sources and arguments that challenge the push theory, with some participants expressing skepticism about the validity of these sources.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the push theory, with some supporting it and others challenging its validity. There is no consensus on the implications of neutrino properties for gravitational theory, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various sources and prior knowledge, but there are unresolved questions regarding the detection of tau neutrinos, their mass, and the implications for gravitational forces. The discussion also reflects differing interpretations of neutrino interactions with matter.

  • #61
beatrix kiddo said:
armo, who was it that kept saying, "i really THINK that's too high to be the energy for a neutrino" hahahaha. so i had to give u 2 sources to show u i didn't make that up. and if i was getting owned so bad, would i have even bothered to come back and write in this thread? armo i guess u think because CHROOT says something, i should automatically give up what i know is right. just because he's an admin.. who's admining the admins?? i get in trouble for something i didn't do and now I'm half way to getting banned for 21 days. (look at my crappy warning level!) i don't know if my warning level has anything to do with this but I'm constantly having to sign in, every few minutes which really sux. and u also can't expect me to take chroot seriously if he comes here to TD and starts talking down to me. should admins do this? i mean, chroot is supposed to be understanding and trying to "help" me. instead he tells me i don't know my "ass from a tensor" and then slaps me with a 7 point warning level! what happened to not getting personal. this is so backwards...

Beatrix, the fact that I said "THINK" means i wasnt sure, so there was no proving me right or wrong in that case. Besides, i said several times (and so did many others) that neutrinos don't interact almost at all, meaning it doesn't matter if they have how much energy you say they have. The point is that they don't interact enough to cause a gravitational force, that has been my argument all along and you havnt been able to defend your theory against that in any way. Even in sources that you or Stupid gave me said how little they interact.
 
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  • #62
beatrix kiddo said:
nereid, it's going to take a lot more than what u think u are capable of presenting on this thread. and "HAS failED"? u make it sound as if our theory has actually been proven false. all u guys can do is present me with things einstein said and the experiments preformed and the list goes on. u think u have officially proven this theory wrong, but so far u haven't given any exact evidence that directly states where I'm wrong.
nereid, the first test is logic. the second test is where i buy all this equipment, come to ur house, set up a neutrino detector in ur bathroom, and prefrom all these experiments and u can stand and watch, ok? we can even test that whole neutrino mag. flux idea u introduced in the old thread, just to see if ur right!
it's OBVIOUS i can't exactly test this thing, nereid. i am 15 and my resources are sadly limited. the only part of the neutrino detector i can supply is the water.. and it's not even heavy so that's going to make it even harder to detect them. geez. but if i did have all the resources, equipment, etc. me and my team of japanese super geniuses would be able to prove my theory. but until then i will keep searching for the undoubtedly accumulating evidence that backs this theory up.
As you know your idea quite well, I can suggest a zero cost start - do a thought experiment, and make it quantitative.

For example, 'according to the s/k neutrino/gravity pull idea [or whatever name you chose to give it], an object which weighs 100kg on my bathroom scales at noon on 21 December, 2004 at (location), will weigh [insert the results of your calculation here] at midnight later that same day' For good measure, you could add date/times and locations which show the effect of the Moon, the distance from a nuclear reactor, latitude (e.g. the effects of the non-spherical shape of the Earth), and so on.

My guess is it'd take you less time to come up with these predictions that it would to post to this thread over the next two days.
 
  • #63
brad.. of course neutrinos play a part in the gravitational bending of light... http://gravity.ontheinter.net/ click the link that says neutrinos bend light or something... i don't feel like describing it to u right now..
armo-ahhh! i have given u book sources that say neutinos are so numerous that they can in fact affect gravity in the solar system. (the book agrees with einsteins model of gravity, but it still says neutrios play a part in gravity) I'm taking it further and saying they are the only cause of "gravity"... i have many sources to defend my theory and i have used them against u and u couldn't refute them. i'll re-cite if u want me to...
 
  • #64
My guess is it'd take you less time to come up with these predictions that it would to post to this thread over the next two days.

huh?! :rolleyes:

but thanks for the info on how i can do this little experiment... god. from now on I'm going to have to tell u ppl when I'm being sarcastic so no one gets confused.
and I've decided to call the push theory "the theory that pwns everyone else's". i think it's catchy! :wink:
 
  • #65
beatrix kiddo said:
"the theory that pwns everyone else's". i think it's catchy! :wink:

what does pwns mean?
 
  • #66
pawns and owns... or was ur question merely sarcasm? if so nvm...
 
  • #67
beatrix kiddo said:
pawns and owns... or was ur question merely sarcasm? if so nvm...

No, not at all. I'm just not very familiar with modern slang. I thought perhaps it was an acronym.
 
  • #68
what does pawn mean? The only definitions i know is...that a pawn is the weakest piece in chess, and also that (verb) to pawn is to trade something in for money.
 
  • #69
Nereid's challenge is a reasonable one: give us a specific, quantatative prediction of your theory.
 
  • #70
hmmm armo.. i dunno. the chess pawn of course! because that makes the most sense... omg
this gets difficult russ, because i would need to find the force exerted by the neutrino flux during the day, then the force at night and then i'd need the difference. also, i need to know the direct relationship between the neutrino absorption rate and an object's density because this is what determines an object's weight. so, when i figure all of these things out, u'll be the first to know my specific quanta- oh, quantitative prediction. just so u know, I'm not about to make some random prediction. that's not what a real physicist would do...
 
  • #71
Jesus Beatrix, i was only asking, u don't have to mean about it.
 
  • #72
dude, armo I'm sorry. i have a real bad migraine so i don't mean to be *****y...
 
  • #73
Cool Automatic Censorship!
 
  • #74
beatrix kiddo said:
this gets difficult russ, because i would need to find the force exerted by the neutrino flux during the day, then the force at night and then i'd need the difference. also, i need to know the direct relationship between the neutrino absorption rate and an object's density because this is what determines an object's weight. so, when i figure all of these things out, u'll be the first to know my specific quanta- oh, quantitative prediction. just so u know, I'm not about to make some random prediction. that's not what a real physicist would do...

Agreed. No real physicist would propose a theory, much less a prediction based on that theory, without offering their peers evidence the assumptions used are valid.

Footnote. 'pwns' is a slang term meaning 'I am so in control of you, I could sell you at a pawn shop.'
 
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  • #75
beatrix, if u an account for AIM or MSN, then can i have them?
 
  • #76
hahaha.. whatever chronos

armo its medijuju07 at aim
 
  • #77
This is degrating into personal attacks like the last thread... Let's ends this and agree to disagree because we're just going in circles. Where is Tom when you need him?
 
  • #78
entropy, don't say that! the LAST thing anyone wants is tom to come here and stop what is becoming my social life... :wink:
 
  • #79
I'd just like to point out that you will weigh slightly less at night because you are slightly farther from the sun. I doubt this difference is much at all, but it is there.
*edit woops, got it backwards, see post 2 down*


And I really think that you need to stop and think before you blindly accept that guy's theory that everything is donut shaped.

His argument for it is a 1 dimensional model where the center object is given an initial speed. Of course there's going to be separation into two clusters! And, at the least, why would the final shape be a donut and not a SHELL?? By his own arguments you can't have it centralized (the ring is centralized).
 
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  • #80
beatrix kiddo said:
this gets difficult russ, because i would need to find the force exerted by the neutrino flux during the day, then the force at night and then i'd need the difference. also, i need to know the direct relationship between the neutrino absorption rate and an object's density because this is what determines an object's weight. so, when i figure all of these things out, u'll be the first to know my specific quanta- oh, quantitative prediction. just so u know, I'm not about to make some random prediction. that's not what a real physicist would do...
Oh, ok - so you have an idea, not even an hypothesis yet. Lotta work to do before you can claim any sort of validity. In our opinion, your idea is flawed (and not just a little bit flawed). If you want to convince us otherwise, you need to develop it into a real hypothesis at the very least.
I'd just like to point out that you will weigh slightly less at night because you are slightly farther from the sun. I doubt this difference is much at all, but it is there.
No, at night you'd be walking on your ceiling because the sun is below you, pushing up.
 
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  • #81
russ_watters said:
No, at night you'd be walking on your ceiling because the sun is below you, pushing up.

Woops! I sortof got off track for a moment.

In the day time the sun pulls you from the earth, and at the night the sun pulls you into the earth. So you'll actually weigh a bit MORE at night.
 
  • #82
Alkatran said:
Woops! I sortof got off track for a moment.

In the day time the sun pulls you from the earth, and at the night the sun pulls you into the earth. So you'll actually weigh a bit MORE at night.
Oh, you meant with the current accepted theory. I was talking about what "push" gravity might predict if anyone ever got around to making a real prediction.
 
  • #83
russ_watters said:
Oh, you meant with the current accepted theory. I was talking about what "push" gravity might predict if anyone ever got around to making a real prediction.

Yes, I was worried that he would get a super-sensitive scale, confirm there was a weight difference, and come back to us talking about how this proved the theory right.
 
  • #84
Alkatran said:
Yes, I was worried that he would get a super-sensitive scale, confirm there was a weight difference, and come back to us talking about how this proved the theory right.

no.. sorry guys.. i haven't obtained a super-sensitive scale yet, but when i do the experiment commences! also, tran i kinda already said that if there was a weight difference in the object, that wouldn't necessarily mean I'm right...

u know that's not going to be enough. but i'll do it anyways, since I've been "whining" about it. so right now i weigh 113 (lbs). all i have to do is see if i weigh a little less than that at night...
but even if it does show i weigh less, that won't necessarily mean I'm right. i really want to get some results from neutrino detectors and such.

i was being sarcastic about weighing myself, because that changes with daily actvities, but i can do it with a book or my ps2 or something...
 
  • #85
beatrix kiddo said:
no.. sorry guys.. i haven't obtained a super-sensitive scale yet, but when i do the experiment commences! also, tran i kinda already said that if there was a weight difference in the object, that wouldn't necessarily mean I'm right...

i was being sarcastic about weighing myself, because that changes with daily actvities, but i can do it with a book or my ps2 or something...

By the current theory, you should weigh slightly more. By your theory you should weight slightly less. We'll see who's right.
 
  • #86
It doesn't need to be super-sensitive. Any mechanism that's able to generate 170 lbs. of force pushing me into the floor is going to demonstrate variations large enough to be detected with a bathroom scale.

After all, as others have said: if neutrinos from the Sun push me into the Earth during the day, why don't they push me off the Earth at night?

- Warren
 
  • #87
because there are also neutrinos pushing u down on the Earth at night
 
  • #88
From where?

- Warren
 
  • #89
And indeed, if there were neutrinos pushing you from every direction at once, there'd be no gravity at all -- the net force would be zero.

- Warren
 
  • #90
beatrix kiddo said:
because there are also neutrinos pushing u down on the Earth at night

Where are they coming from? How far into the Earth do they penetrate? Do they pass all the way through the earth? If so why don't they cancel out the effect of the sun? If they don't make it all the way through, why don't we weigh (a lot) less underground? Why are the other planets keeping orbit if all these neutrinos happen to be perfectly lined up to keep gravity uniform on earth? Why doesn't this incoming gravity change as we rotate around the sun? If it's focused on the sun why are we being pushed down when on the sides of the earth?

Want me to keep going?
 

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