I think the main difference in opinion we have here (and I agree it is drifting away from the topic of this thread, my fault mainly, but I think it is worth having this discussion nevertheless), is that there are people who tend to think that science "has something to sell to the public", while I don't think so. Science is not a religion that needs converts. Of course, *society* should probably be better off if people were more interested in science, but that's up to society to decide, to find out, ... and not up to scientists.
Xezlec said:
It's a politician's job to convince people that science is worth listening to? No, that's not right, it's a politician's job to get elected and stay there. They tell people whatever they think will get people to vote for them. Why would science be useful in that? People don't even *like* science.
Mmm, but in that case, science shouldn't bother people, right ?
Well, the "action" in question was listening to what you have to say, so since that's the thing that (ultimately) gets people to fund your research, I'd think that would fall under your umbrella.
There's something to say for. So scientists should have people pay attention to their science, and scientists should tell people that their science is important to people, ultimately in order to get funding. I grant you that. So all this "advertising" is in essence meant to get a certain domain of science funded.
So it should sit and wait to be consulted, never daring to assert itself. So why would anyone bother to consult it, then? You believe that you are going to sell your product without the least bit of advertising? How many phones would Motorola sell if they refused to advertise in any way and just waited to be asked whether they happened to sell phones? Having a product and not being willing to tell anyone about it unless asked seems precisely as useful as not having any product at all.
But that's the point. There's no product to sell. The "product" of science are journals and books, essentially for other scientists. Of course, because science is funded by the public, scientists should do some effort to explain to that interested part of public what their stuff is about. There should indeed be some communication, for the small part of the public that is interested. And yes, you were right, there needs to be some part of propaganda, probably, in order to get funding. Maybe Kopenhagen is nothing but a big funding fancy fair for climate science, and this update report is part of that, and I missed entirely what it was about.
I don't know how to respond to this. It is beyond my imagination to conceive of how a human being could be so detached from the world as to watch it decay into chaos and not only not be concerned, but actually "get a kick out of" it.
Ah. I nevertheless think that that detachment is the first requirement in order to be able to study something. And yes, an anomalous happening would indeed render the matter to be studied more exciting, no ?
You keep saying this, and I keep not seeing it in practice. Again, the mass public isn't some perfect analyst. Remember that "Mad Money" guy on CNN or whatever back in the day? All he did was sit around and make predictions. He wasn't good at it. People kept watching, despite the fact that he cried wolf hundreds of times and was wrong. It took a disaster the size of the financial meltdown to finally get rid of him, and even then, only after Jon Stewart roasted him for a whole week and it grabbed headlines. There are similarly thousands of charlatans, quacks, and scammers who make money on the basic human tendency to want to see something as a success and to not be very good at remembering failures.
Ah, so you mean there's actually no problem in trying to "panic people" because hey, they will forget anyway if you were wrong and others do it too ?
Nonsense. How do you think they came to believe that in the first place? Because the other side doesn't have any qualms about trying to convince people of their beliefs, and they know what tactics actually work (sitting around, waiting for them to come to you, and trying to maintain absolute credibility by refusing to advocate for yourself at all probably isn't one of them). "Debate" may be the wrong way to think of it. Debates are between fairly high-minded, scientific types. Normal folks don't "debate", they just talk. I feel that the unwillingness of many scientists to talk to plain folks and take the initiative to put forth their side, with a little normal, human self-advocacy is the thing that damages science, by making it look cold, scary, and antisocial, as well as making it unlikely that most people will ever have heard your side.
But that's the point: it doesn't matter what "side" people are on, or what they believe.
You know, when I talk to real, live young-Earthers (which I do fairly often), I find that they just don't know about science. No one has told them much about it. Scientists refuse to lower themselves to reach out to them, and their own community certainly doesn't encourage them to go seek out science on their own. When I show them and explain to them how geology and biology and things work, they are sometimes surprised and excited, having had no idea this whole world of cool ideas existed. You'd be amazed.
It is their problem, it is society's problem, but it is not science's problem I'd say.
The thing is, the artificial distinction you're trying to maintain, the distinction of talking to normal people totally dispassionately, is not a positive distinction. It makes you look worse, not better. It's better to behave like a normal person so as to even the odds on that front, so hopefully the slight edge of being right will be enough to put you ahead.
But why would I care what the other person thinks (as a scientist, not as a citizen) ?
I mean, if it is a fundamental human right to believe in strange stories (called religions) and a large part of world population is convinced of such things, why would one have any "duty" to make them accept "science" - apart of course, from sufficient support to get funding ?
If a scientist thinks, according to his science, that society might face a problem in one way or another, it is of course his responsibility to inform political leaders about it, and also to inform, in as much as they are interested, public about it. However, he should respect society's mechanisms to respond to that, and that response might very well be "we don't believe you", or "we don't care". His job is done at that point and now it is in the hands of society who has to determine what to do with that given (that a scientist told them there might be a serious problem).
So how well has that worked so far? Have we made those kinds of arguments look bad? Have people stopped using them? Of course not. You don't have the power to render those arguments valid or not in the minds of the public. Maybe someday, average people will be at that intellectual level. But in the real world of today, I think people already see them as on the same level, and there's not much any of us can do to change that. You just have to work with the rules the world gives you, even if they're dumb rules.
I would say, if the intellectual level of society and its mechanisms of decision-taking are not up to the level of responding "correctly" to the scientist's message, then so be it. It is not his problem, it is society's problem and if that means society is going to put itself into big doodoo, then it has only itself to blame. Not the scientist.
You could just as well "scientifically" argue who has to be president or something. No, society has its ways of making (good or bad) decisions and has to put up with them.
A lot of that information will stay bottled up within the community and never get out.
Again, I don't know if it should by all means get out. Science is conducted for science's sake, and for the intellectual pleasure of scientists taking part in it. In as much as society wants to take advantage of that (like technological advances), it is of course their good right, but if it doesn't, that doesn't matter to science and to the intellectual pleasure of the scientists, no ? With your caveat, I agree, that it still should get ways to get funded.
Far most mathematics research never gets out either. There's a lot of science that never gets out of the "ivory tower" or only to that small fraction of population that is interested in it. The bulk of the public doesn't see a promille of what science is about.
So, yes, science should communicate to the public, but only to those that "ask" for it, and without trying to convey a "message of action", because I don't think it is its duty and it is in any case a lost case.