Newbie questions: wave and particle viewpoints

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Discussion Overview

This discussion explores the wave and particle viewpoints in physics, particularly focusing on probability amplitudes, their mathematical representation, and implications in wave behavior. Participants engage with concepts related to wave propagation, the nature of complex numbers in physics, and the relationship between time and spatial variables in wave equations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the squared absolute value of the probability amplitude is used, suggesting that simply squaring the amplitude might suffice.
  • Another participant explains that the probability amplitude is a complex number, and squaring it directly would yield another complex number, while the squared absolute value results in a real number.
  • Participants discuss the significance of the expression e^{i(ωt-k \bullet r)}, noting that the subtraction indicates a wave traveling in the +r direction, while addition would indicate a wave traveling in the -r direction.
  • There is a query about the implications of negative phases and whether they indicate directionality of wave propagation.
  • A participant suggests that understanding the characteristics of waves represented by complex numbers can be enhanced by referring to specific literature.
  • Another participant shares a personal realization about the relationship between ωt and kx, questioning the implications of this relationship in the context of wave equations.
  • Discussion includes the importance of phase in wave addition, particularly in coherent versus incoherent sources, and how this affects sound pressure levels (SPL).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of the mathematical representations and implications of wave behavior. There is no consensus on the questions raised regarding the nature of probability amplitudes, the significance of phase, and the relationship between time and spatial variables in wave equations.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference specific mathematical relationships and literature to support their points, but the discussion remains open-ended with unresolved questions about the implications of these relationships.

Fyreth
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I'm still in high school. I'm reading about physics as a hobby.

In http://student.fizika.org/~jsisko/Knjige/Opca%20Fizika/Feynman%20Lectures%20on%20Physics/Vol%203%20Ch%2002%20-%20Relation%20of%20Wave%20&%20Particle%20Viewpoints.pdf the limitations of the particle and wave viewpoints are described.

I've read that the probability of an event is the squared absolute value of the probability amplitude. Why would you do that? Wouldn't just taking the square work as well?

On the first page of that document there is this probability amplitude: e[itex]^{i(ωt-k \bullet r)}[/itex]
Why is kr substracted from ωt? Why aren't the phases added to each other?
It also says that the squared absolute value of this amplitude is constant but aren't t and r variables? Why would it be constant?
 
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Fyreth said:
I've read that the probability of an event is the squared absolute value of the probability amplitude. Why would you do that? Wouldn't just taking the square work as well?

The probability amplitude is a complex number, in general. Squaring a complex number gives another complex number. Probability has to be a real number. The squared absolute value is always real.

On the first page of that document there is this probability amplitude: e[itex]^{i(ωt-k \bullet r)}[/itex]
Why is kr substracted from ωt?

It gives you a wave that travels in the +r direction.

Why aren't the phases added to each other?

They can be added, in which case the wave travels in the -r direction.

It also says that the squared absolute value of this amplitude is constant but aren't t and r variables? Why would it be constant?

To get the squared absolute value of a complex number, we multiply the number by its complex conjugate (replace i with -i and vice versa).

[tex]e^{i\theta}e^{-i\theta} = e^{i\theta-i\theta} = e^0 = 1[/tex]
 
Last edited:
jtbell said:
It gives you a wave that travels in the +r direction.

They can be added, in which case the wave travels in the -r direction.

Why? Does a negative phase mean that the wave is traveling in a positive direction?
 
I think what they explain is true. there are implicit physics characteristics of wave that represent by complex number.
for more understanding purpose, you can read Marry L.Boas, Mathematical Method for Physics. You will understand with what Chaucy approach about complex number
 
Fyreth said:
Why? Does a negative phase mean that the wave is traveling in a positive direction?

To convince yourself of this, I think it's best to make some graphs. Pick numbers for [itex]\omega[/itex] and k, set t = 0, and draw a graph of y versus x for [itex]y = \cos (\omega t - kx) = \cos (-kx)[/itex]. Then set t = 0.1, say, and draw another graph. Then set t = 0.2 and do another one.

Repeat for [itex]y = \cos (\omega t + kx)[/itex].

You need to use the cosine (or sine) instead of [itex]e^{i(\omega t - kx)}[/itex] because it's kind of hard to draw graphs of complex numbers.
 
Hi, I've just started a Masters in Acoustics after a ten year gap from education, so I've spent the last few months getting my head around this subject too.

One really important thing I realized recently is that ωt = kx. Here's the proof,

c=fλ, f=c/λ, λ=c/f
k=2π/λ,
c=x/t, x=ct, t=x/c
ω = 2πf
→ ω=2πc/λ → ω=ck → ω=kx/t → ωt = kx

So what's the point then? Shouldn't the whole thing just be cos(0)=1?

Engineering Noise Control: Theory and Practice is a good book for this. It gives this expression for the wave equation, φ=Acos(k(ct±x)+β

Here ± is used because a wave can go in either direction, but more importantly, k has been taken out, clearly showing the two most important things within the bracket - ct & x. What this does is allow us to consider the wave when time is zero but at a distance x, or when time is 20 ms and the distance is zero - or at some combination of the two.

k=2π/λ and this 2π makes the cos bracket give a solution that will always be between -1 and 1.

β is the phase - and is easiest considered as a value that shifts the entire wave left or right by a given amount. The phase was also a part of something that confused me for a long time, which was the addition of waves. Adding two incoherent sources together (two violinists as opposed to one) increases the SPL by 3 dB, but adding two coherent sources (two speakers as opposed to one - putting out exactly the same signal which is in phase) increases the SPL by 6 dB. When two signals are in phase with each other you get an extra 3 dB increase.

There isn't actually a standard convention for using positive or negative in this respect (Cox, 2009, s. 1.4.1).
 

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