Non-inertial reference frames question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the implications of deceleration in non-inertial reference frames, particularly in the context of special relativity (SR). Participants explore how distances and observations change when a spaceship decelerates from relativistic speeds, examining the nature of distance, redshift, and the validity of calculations across different frames of reference.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions what happens to the perception of Alpha Centauri during deceleration, suggesting it appears to recede faster than light, while noting the lack of a unique definition for non-inertial frames.
  • Another participant argues that mixing distances from different inertial frames with proper time from a non-inertial frame leads to physically meaningless results, advocating for the abandonment of the concept of distance in such contexts.
  • A different viewpoint emphasizes that while all inertial frames are equal in theory, practical analysis often requires selecting a specific frame to simplify calculations, especially in scenarios involving multiple frames.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about discarding the concept of distance, arguing that plotting a course to Alpha Centauri would necessitate a well-defined distance, despite the complexities introduced by non-inertial frames.
  • Another participant reinforces the idea that the observed redshift or blueshift of light is invariant, contrasting it with the non-uniqueness of distance measurements in non-inertial contexts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the validity and implications of distance measurements in non-inertial frames. While some argue for the abandonment of the concept of distance, others maintain that it remains relevant for practical navigation and plotting courses in space.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of distance and the implications of switching frames during calculations. The discussion reflects a range of interpretations of special relativity and the challenges posed by non-inertial reference frames.

  • #31
PAllen said:
The image compression on approach is a large part of the relavistic beaming effect, increasing brightness. This is a lrger impact than blueshift.

Yep, you're right, I took a look at the formulas. I've deleted my previous post that was in error.
 
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  • #32
When the rocket stops instantaneously, the last measurement it may make that is unambiguously made when it was moving is the position of Alpha Centauri on the surface of the past light cone of the deceleration event. If it stops at distance ##d## as measured in Centauri's rest frame, this should be $$d\sqrt{\frac{c+v}{c-v}}$$At some point after that, all measurements should agree that the distance is ##d##. But how it happens depends on the measurement process.

If you use the angular size of the star, that changes instantaneously at the deceleration event. Since there's a finite speed of light, this means that you interpret the change from one inertial frame to the other as something that happened discontinuously on the surface of the past light cone of your deceleration event. So, the distance changed before you decelerated. The time at which this occurred is either ##-d/c## or ##-fd/c##, where ##f## is the Doppler factor (the square root above), depending on which frame you include the surface of the light cone in.

If you use the radar method, the first measurement unambiguously made after stopping is the first radar pulse sent out after the stop. So the last pulse to return before deceleration establishes that Alpha Centauri was at distance ##fd## at ship's time ##-fd/c##. The first pulse sent out after the stop establishes that Alpha Centauri was at distance ##d## at ship's time ##+d/c##. Dolby and Gull show that pulses sent before the deceleration that return afterwards show a linear change in distance in the intervening period. So this method says that Alpha Centauri slows before the deceleration event and stops after it.

The radar method is actually building one possible non-inertial frame. The angular size method is giving you a physical justification for when to switch inertial frames. The radar method is better, to my way of thinking, because it's assignment of times is never problematic. Stitching together inertial frames leads to the ship asserting that some negative times happened twice in some places, so there's nasty book keeping hidden under a simpler exterior.
 
  • #33
Note that radar coordinates are globally well behaved only if, for the defining observer, motion is inertial for all time before some event, and also inertial for all time after some event. Given this constraint, no matter what the world line does in between gives you well behaved global coordinates. However, if this condition is not met, radar coordinates may have no more consistent coverage than Fermi-normal coordinates (which are what you get from stitching MCIF together). For example, for eternal uniform acceleration, the coverage of radar coordinates and Fermi-normal coordinates are identical. Note that Rindler coordinates are just Fermi-normal coordinates with a translation to make x=0 the horizon rather than a given accelerating observer.
 
  • #34
PAllen said:
Note that radar coordinates are globally well behaved only if, for the defining observer, motion is inertial for all time before some event, and also inertial for all time after some event.
Or just inertial on average, I think. For example I can swing my radar set around my head on a string for all eternity and I should get good coordinates everywhere - if I look on a large enough scale the deviation from the Minkowski frame of my and my radar set's joint centre of mass should be negligible. Or is there something I'm missing?
 
  • #35
Ibix said:
Or just inertial on average, I think. For example I can swing my radar set around my head on a string for all eternity and I should get good coordinates everywhere - if I look on a large enough scale the deviation from the Minkowski frame of my and my radar set's joint centre of mass should be negligible. Or is there something I'm missing?
That sounds plausible. I did not consider oscillating situations when deriving the rule I stated.
 
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