Null Hypersurface: Building a Tangent Surface in 2 Dimensions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the construction of a spacelike surface S within a null hypersurface N, focusing on the theoretical aspects of tangent vectors and the implications of constructing such surfaces in the context of spacetime geometry. Participants explore the mathematical foundations and potential methods for building S, as well as the properties of null hypersurfaces and their tangent spaces.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about the possibility of selecting a spacelike surface S that lies within a null hypersurface N, noting that tangent vectors to N are either spacelike or parallel to the normal vector.
  • One participant suggests that the basis for the tangent space T_pN includes vectors that are orthogonal to a chosen null vector, prompting questions about the number of linearly independent tangent vectors available.
  • Another participant proposes that constructing a basis of tangent vectors at a point p could lead to defining S as the span of specific spacelike vectors, but raises concerns about extending this construction smoothly across all points in N.
  • Some participants discuss the example of a future light cone in Minkowski spacetime, suggesting that the family of 2-dimensional hypersurfaces could be diffeomorphic to S^2, based on analogy with lower-dimensional cases.
  • One participant reflects on their progress in understanding how to generalize the construction of S, considering the implications of defining S as a level set of a function f:N→ℝ.
  • Another participant introduces a different approach by analyzing the integral curves of the normal vector to the light cone, suggesting that these curves generate the light cone and can be used to parametrize spacelike surfaces.
  • Concerns are raised about whether the defined surface S actually constitutes a valid surface, particularly regarding the behavior of integral curves of the tangent vectors at a point p in S.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the construction of the spacelike surface S, with no consensus reached on the methods or implications discussed. Multiple competing ideas and approaches remain present throughout the conversation.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their understanding of how to smoothly extend the construction of S across the null hypersurface N and the conditions under which the defined surface S can be considered valid.

tommyj
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Hi

Why is it possible to be able to pick a spacelike 2 surface S that lies in a null hypersurface N? We know that all the tangents vectors to N are either spacelike or parrelel to the normal vector. I imagine we want to build up S as the surface that is tangent to all the spacelike vectors in N, but I'm not quite sure how to build this up.. A hint rather than the exact answer would be much appreciated (although I will be grateful for either!)

Thanks
 
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The light cone is an example of a null hypersurface.
 
Let ##\left\{ e_0, e_1, e_2, e_3 \right\}## be an orthonormal basis. WLOG, let ##n = e_0 + e_1## be a null vector. What spacetime vectors are orthogonal to ##n##?
 
tommyj said:
We know that all the tangents vectors to N are either spacelike or parrelel to the normal vector.

This is true. Now ask yourself: how many linearly independent tangent vectors to N are there? (In other words, if I want to construct a basis of tangent vectors to N at a particular point, how many vectors will I need?) Of this total number of linearly independent tangent vectors, how many are spacelike?
 
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Using notation as George above, the basis for [itex]T_pN[/itex] would be [itex](n, e_2, e_3 )[/itex] .The two spacelike vectors would be [itex]e_2 , e_3[/itex], not [itex]e_1[/itex] since this is not orthogonal to [itex]n[/itex]. Hence, at this particular point [itex]p[/itex] where we have this ortho basis, I would like to have [itex]T_pS = sp(e_2, e_3)[/itex] for the desired surface [itex]S[/itex]. This would induce a Riemannian metric at [itex]p[/itex] for [itex]S[/itex]. I would like to do this for all [itex]p\in N[/itex] in a smooth way so as to build up a spacelike surface [itex]S[/itex]. But how would this be done? I'm aware that the orthormal basis we picked only holds at the point [itex]p[/itex] so the question is how to combine this method together over all of [itex]N[/itex] .I'm still not entirely sure either how I would get a form for [itex]S[/itex] from this anyway. I'm guessing somehow using this operation can help me to define [itex]S[/itex] as the level set of some function [itex]f:N\rightarrow \mathbb{R}[/itex] ?

Thanks for your comments!
 
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tommyj said:
I would like to do this for all ##p \in N## in a smooth way so as to build up a spacelike surface ##S##

You've got the right idea, but note that if you do it (i.e., construct an induced Riemannian metric at each point ##p## using the two spacelike basis vectors ##e_2## and ##e_3##) for all ##p \in N##, you won't get one spacelike surface; you will get an infinite family of them. You might want to think about how this infinite family of spacelike surfaces can be parametrized.
 
Maybe you should work this out for the example that robphy suggested, a future lightcone in Minkowski spacetime. It seems to me (without thinking much, or putting pen to paper, so I could be wrong) that, in this case, each member of (as PeterDonis pointed out) the family of 2-dimensional hypersurfaces is (diffeomorphic to) ##S^2##.

I base this on analogy. Consider a 3-dimesional version of Minkowski spacetime that has one timelike dimension and two spacelike dimensions. A lightcone is a 2-dimensional surface in this spacetime. There is a family of 1-dimensional spacelike hypersurfaces, i.e., the closed circles that result when ##t## is held constant.
 
Yes I did that example just now, I must apologize to robphy I thought he was just giving an example of a null hypersurface. Indeed, doing it for the Minkowski light cone things follow through as I had hoped (in this case it was clear that the spacelike surface would be 2 spheres, but it was good to see that the tangent space was indeed spanned by the two "angle" spacelike vectors). These 2 spheres are also the level set of [itex]f:N\rightarrow\mathbb{R}, f(X) = r[/itex] on the light cone, parametrised by [itex]r (=t)[/itex]. Maybe I need to generalise this so that my (I'll be really sketchy here) "null" coordinate is the one that defines by function [itex]f[/itex] (so that the spacelike surface is given by [itex]f = constant[/itex] . But I also notice that [itex]r[/itex] appears when we redefine the angle coordinates to have unit length ( i.e choosing our ortho basis) so maybe this is another thing I need to try and generalize? This is what I'll try to do now (unless I've got it horribly wrong!) just thought I would give an update as to my progress!
 
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okay a sort of different approach but how about this. I'll start by the motivation with the light cone for 3D Minkowski (in polar coordinates). The light cone has normal [itex]n^a = (\frac{\partial}{\partial t} + \frac{\partial}{\partial r} )^a[/itex] . We know that the integral curves of [itex]n^a[/itex] are null geodesics that lie in [itex]N[/itex] . It's clear from say drawing a picture that these generate all of the light cone. Let's label each null geodesic as [itex]X^a(\lambda)[/itex] where [itex]\lambda[/itex] is an affine parameter. It is clear that for fixed [itex]\lambda = \lambda _0, X^a(\lambda _0)[/itex] defines a circle, which is spacelike. Hence, for the light cone the spacelike surfaces (which are circles) are parametrised by the affine parameter.

Let's do this for our general null hypersurface [itex]N[/itex] . With the same notation as above, set [itex]S = X^a(\lambda _0)[/itex]. Pick [itex]p\in S[/itex]. Then knowing what we have above from our orthonormal representation, we have [itex]T_pS = span(e_2. e_3)[/itex] since [itex]n^a = (\frac{d}{d\lambda})^a[/itex] vanishes as [itex]\lambda = \lambda _0[/itex] is constant. Thus we have an induced Riemannian metric for [itex]S[/itex] at [itex]p[/itex] and since [itex]p[/itex] was arbitrary we are done. Then the spacelike hypersurfaces would be parametrised by the affine parameter [itex]\lambda[/itex] along the generators of [itex]N[/itex].

This seems right to me. The only issue is whether [itex]S[/itex] as defined above actually defines a surface. What do people think?
 
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tommyj said:
The only issue is whether ##S## as defined above actually defines a surface.

If we pick a point ##p## in a given ##S##, do the integral curves of ##e_2## and ##e_3##, starting from ##p##, lie in ##S##?
 

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