Numb3rs: A Missed Opportunity for Mathematical Accuracy

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The discussion critiques a TV show that attempts to integrate mathematics into crime-solving but largely fails to deliver on its promise. Viewers express disappointment over the superficial use of mathematics, noting that the equations presented are often fictitious and irrelevant. The portrayal of the main character as a mathematician is criticized, as he appears less frequently than his crime-solving brother, and the mathematical content lacks depth. Some participants argue that the show aims to entertain rather than educate, while others hope it will promote interest in mathematics among the general public. Overall, the consensus is that the show misses the mark in effectively showcasing the role of math in solving crimes.
  • #31
Moonbear said:
Actually, I was thinking I should soon look up how many chocolate-covered espresso beans equals a cup of coffee in caffeine content. I have a package of beans here, and it says a serving is 2 beans! :eek: I've already eaten about a dozen (they're so small and yummy and make my headache go away). I hadn't read the serving size before munching away. Now I'm wondering if I'll be up all night or all weekend on this dose of caffeine, or will I not even notice? :-p
Those beans are good.

My best friend in Itay knows how much I love coffee so he sent me a big box of coffee liqueur fillled chocolates. Mmmmmmmmmmm
 
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  • #32
Okay, ready to go!

10 PM...check
TV on...check
Tuned to CBS...check
Giant bowl of popcorn...check
can of Pepsi...check
blanket and pillow...check

All set!
 
  • #33
Problem #1, without saying anything that will spoil the show for those on different time zones...they're trying to apply math to psychology as if human behavior is completely predictable based on equations. :smile:

The math guy is a real GEEK! This can't possibly be good for how people view math. They're still making it sound all mysterious and impossible to understand if you aren't a geek.

Wait until you see the garage! :smile: :smile:
 
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  • #34
Moonbear said:
The math guy is a real GEEK! This can't possibly be good for how people view math. They're still making it sound all mysterious and impossible to understand if you aren't a geek.

Wait until you see the garage! :smile: :smile:

Okay, one of the characters just asked Charlie's father "How old was he when you realized that he was exceptional." He replied "Around 3 when he could multiply 4-digit numbers in his head."

Yup, math is impossible to everyone unless you are born with it :rolleyes:. And if America thinks it is true, then it *is* true .
 
  • #35
If I couldn't laugh at the math and perpetuation of stereotypes about mathematicians, this show would be truly awful! I wonder if it will even finish out the season before being cancelled?

Woo hoo...geek boy is playing minesweeper now! :smile:
 
  • #36
I have a headache.
 
  • #37
Hurkyl said:
I have a headache.

Yep, that's my opinion too! It wasn't even a good cop show if you ignored the weird math. I'm still laughing about the garage though! I don't want to ruin it for anyone who wants to see this for themselves, because that actually had me really laughing. It's worth paying careful attention to the details! :smile:

A few more time zones to go and then we can post the details.
 
  • #38
Well, would you expect them to spend 45 minutes of air time solving an equation?

"Mmm... wait... if we move x here. Hey Bob, what's the trig identity for sine squared x? Aaaaaah what do YOU know... ok, what if I expand these two and extract the constant..." *we'll be right back after these messages*
*and now back to Numb3rs* "... and thus, we integrate by parts by substituting..."
 
  • #39
Icebreaker said:
Well, would you expect them to spend 45 minutes of air time solving an equation?

"Mmm... wait... if we move x here. Hey Bob, what's the trig identity for sine squared x? Aaaaaah what do YOU know... ok, what if I expand these two and extract the constant..." *we'll be right back after these messages*
*and now back to Numb3rs* "... and thus, we integrate by parts by substituting..."

Now that is something I would enjoy... but most of America would probably disagree.
 
  • #40
Icebreaker said:
Well, would you expect them to spend 45 minutes of air time solving an equation?

"Mmm... wait... if we move x here. Hey Bob, what's the trig identity for sine squared x? Aaaaaah what do YOU know... ok, what if I expand these two and extract the constant..." *we'll be right back after these messages*
*and now back to Numb3rs* "... and thus, we integrate by parts by substituting..."

It actually might have been more entertaining.
 
  • #41
Moonbear said:
It actually might have been more entertaining.
This is killing me. The "math genius" is telling the FBI that "now that the suspects know you're aware of them, they will change how they operate". WOW, YA THINK? I'll bet the FBI, let alone anyone with half a brain would figure that out by themselves. I think it's called "common sense". But...NO...it's Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle! :bugeye:

Watching this reminded me why I don't watch network tv shows.

The math wiz "Charlie" looks like our very own genius hunk Gokul. :!) :approve: :!)

From this show I understand Charlie graduated from high school. What other schooling has he had?

Who is the guy with the post grad's that Charlie is supposed to talk to at the University? In what subject? This guy obviously is not in a Math related field (based on his conversations with Charlie)?
.
Charlie's guesses seemed to me based more on logic than math.
 
  • #42
Evo said:
This is killing me. The "math genius" is telling the FBI that "now that the suspects know you're aware of them, they will change how they operate". WOW, YA THINK? I'll bet the FBI, let alone anyone with half a brain would figure that out by themselves. I think it's called "common sense". But...NO...it's Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle! :bugeye:

I was trying not to ruin this for those on Pacific Time. Or is it on in an earlier time slot there?

Watching this reminded me why I don't watch network tv shows.

Yep, the CSI roller coaster flying off the track was pretty impressive tonight though.

The math wiz "Charlie" looks like our very own genius hunk Gokul. :!) :approve: :!)

No WAY! Charlie is SOOOOO geeky! Gokul is way better looking than that! At least I think Gokul knows how to comb his hair.

From this show I understand Charlie graduated from high school. What other schooling has he had?

Well, it's perfectly clear he hasn't had any more schooling than that. He's a true pottery magician! :smile: Did you see the garage yet?

Charlie's guesses seemed to me based more on logic than math.

There was logic in there? The math truly had no relevance, though it was funny to have the detectives running around saying, "We need a new equation!" :smile:
 
  • #43
Ooops, forgot about the Pacific time zone people. Oh well, if they're watching it, they aren't reading this. :biggrin:

Moonbear said:
The math truly had no relevance, though it was funny to have the detectives running around saying, "We need a new equation!"
I know, that was hysterical! :smile:
 
  • #44
Evo said:
I know, that was hysterical! :smile:

See, it's actually very high brow entertainment. Only the very educated elite can appreciate that it's really a comedy and feel pity for those uneducated commoners who think it's a crime drama. :smile:
 
  • #45
He played minesweeper? Dang I missed it. I, umm, recorded the wrong channel :frown:
 
  • #46
mattmns said:
He played minesweeper? Dang I missed it. I, umm, recorded the wrong channel :frown:

Yep, he was playing minesweeper. Apparently it led to the big revelation that cracked the whole case. :smile: I thought it was hysterical that they did this close up dramatization of minesweeper buttons being clicked...you know how in CSI they do those gory "inside" views of the bullet trajectory through a body, it was sort of like they were trying to do this with a computer screen displaying minesweeper.

What channel did you record? Hopefully you didn't wind up with Medical Investigation and got something actually worth watching.
 
  • #47
Dang! I love minesweeper. I recorded comedy central, I was watching reno 911 before and I guess my vcr got on that channel or something, I was not paying attention I guess.
 
  • #48
Okay, if anyone's watching this on Pacific time, it's already on and getting into the show, so we can probably safely give away details now...if you are reading this thread and still watching and don't want to read spoilers, stop here.


I was absolutely DYING as he was in the garage putting chalk boards up on the ceiling and climbing ladders to reach them. Who writes on the ceiling?! Especially when he didn't have any chalkboards down low on the wall. And where did all the chalk boards come from? Did he just have them lying around? Chalkboards, yes, not a computer. :smile:

And, then I was looking at what was on the boards. One looked like it just had people's names on it. One of my friends has a very unusual name, and I swore I saw her name on it...I'm going to have to mention this to her now. Then, another just had terms on it with lines connecting them, but they weren't related words or anything. I swore the one across from him in the scenes where he was talking to the other math guy and they showed boards in the background just had drawings of envelopes on it. There was NO math on those boards that I saw despite the fact he claimed he was trying to solve an unsolveable equation. And then he made that comment about not being able to focus on anyone thing, even if was necessary, he just had to work on whatever was in his head at the time. :smile: He's pure crackpot! :smile:
 
  • #49
mattmns said:
Dang! I love minesweeper. I recorded comedy central, I was watching reno 911 before and I guess my vcr got on that channel or something, I was not paying attention I guess.

That's okay, you really didn't miss much. I'm sure whatever was on Comedy Central was better. At least it was supposed to be funny.
 
  • #50
Evo said:
This is killing me. The "math genius" is telling the FBI that "now that the suspects know you're aware of them, they will change how they operate". WOW, YA THINK? I'll bet the FBI, let alone anyone with half a brain would figure that out by themselves. I think it's called "common sense". But...NO...it's Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle! :bugeye:


YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME

I missed it (decided that headin over to my friends place took precedence).

They took Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and twisted it like that? OH MY GOD. Thats as bad as saying that according to HUP, once you see a giraffe mate, they'll change how you do because you observed them--HUP IS NOT EVEN APPLICABLE. Can i burn down CBS now? I mean, that's just plain bad. Not to mention insulting. I'm seriously insulted.
 
  • #51
Well, even as an analogy, it's poorly done: in HUP, the suspects will change his behaviour as soon as the police is observing suspects, regardless whether the suspects know that fact.
 
  • #52
Icebreaker said:
Well, even as an analogy, it's poorly done: in HUP, the suspects will change his behaviour as soon as the police is observing suspects, regardless whether the suspects know that fact.

HUP had nothing whatsoever to do with the example. How many generations of kids are we going to have to deprogram and reteach HUP to when they get to high school and college now? You know they'll remember the wrong explanation from TV far longer than what their teachers taught them.

They also fail to realize the difference between probability and certainty.

Maybe we should all write to CBS and tell them we'll be watching 20/20 from now on, and hope they cancel the show quickly, before it does too much damage.
 
  • #53
How would you rate the way the Nash equilibrium was "explained" in A Beautiful Mind?
 
  • #54
Moonbear said:
HUP had nothing whatsoever to do with the example. How many generations of kids are we going to have to deprogram and reteach HUP to when they get to high school and college now? You know they'll remember the wrong explanation from TV far longer than what their teachers taught them.

They also fail to realize the difference between probability and certainty.

Maybe we should all write to CBS and tell them we'll be watching 20/20 from now on, and hope they cancel the show quickly, before it does too much damage.

Or they could issue an advisory before the show starts stating, "This show is purely ficitious and nothing presented should be classified as factual."

Edit: This reminds me of the Dover, MA. school board issue several weeks ago, where they put the warning sticks on the biology textbooks. :cry:
 
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  • #55
graphic7 said:
Or they could issue an advisory before the show starts stating, "This show is purely ficitious and nothing presented should be classified as factual."

Do you really think warnings like that help? However, I now see a fun end-of-year lesson for a math/science class: watch an episode of the show and debunk it.
 
  • #56
franznietzsche said:
They took Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and twisted it like that? OH MY GOD. Thats as bad as saying that according to HUP, once you see a giraffe mate, they'll change how you do because you observed them--HUP IS NOT EVEN APPLICABLE.
That is exactly how it was explained! It's probably a good thing you missed it. :biggrin:
 
  • #57
I had the unfortunate happenstance to be exposed breifly to some of the show, though I did ignore a lot of it. My first thought was who ever wrote this script either really liked the movie "Pi" or was part of the production. A lot of the equation flashing and 'cinematography' seemed to be right out of that movie. My next revulsion was some of the pseudo mystigogical pretense and worship of the 'wizard mathematician'. 'OOOH, he can write an equation, sooo mysterious' which in short relays a message about how only these mystical wizards with superpowers can actually do math! The gods must have placed them amongst us mere mortals!

My only hope is that perhaps someone on the show will put a drill to their head and end it if possible. GAWD, people get paid big bucks to come up this nonsense!

Side note: Reductio ad absurdun-there is truly only one operation in mathematics. Anyone care to guess? :biggrin:
 
  • #58
Icebreaker said:
Well, even as an analogy, it's poorly done: in HUP, the suspects will change his behaviour as soon as the police is observing suspects, regardless whether the suspects know that fact.


No. Just no. HUP has absolutely nothing to do with it, not even remotely. Mathematically, HUP simply states:

<br /> \Delta x \Delta p &gt; \frac{h}{2\pi}<br />

Where delta x is uncertainty in position, and delta p is uncertainty in momentum, h is Planck's constant. h over 2 pi is often called h-bar, i just don't know how to enter that symbol in latex, but h over 2 pi is equivalent.

Its similar to the mention of HUP in Jurassic Park 2, which was marginally better, because what they stated was in fact a result of quantum theory, but it was not applicable to their situation, nor was it HUP.

polyb said:
only these mystical wizards with superpowers can actually do math!

But i am superman!

ICebreaker said:
How would you rate the way the Nash equilibrium was "explained" in A Beautiful Mind?

That was not nearly as bad.

you can read his nobel prize seminar here http://nobelprize.org/economics/laureates/1994/nash-lecture.pdf

it says:
Nash proved by page 6 of his thesis that ever n-person finite non-cooperative game has at least one (Nash) equilibrium point. This is a profile of mixed strategies, one for each player, which is such that no one player can improve his payoff by changing his mixed strategy unilaterally.

In the scene where this is introduced, the situation is applicable, i mean its game theory, and a bunch of guys trying to get laid is mathematically speakin, classified as a game.

Its not a great explanation of the concept, but it stays in the realm of the concepts applicability.
 
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  • #59
Wouldn't you describe an effect of HUP as being "changing the results by measuring?" What analogy would you form, then, to explain it?
 
  • #60
Icebreaker said:
Wouldn't you describe an effect of HUP as being "changing the results by measuring?" What analogy would you form, then, to explain it?


No it does not change results by measurement. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

AAARRRRGGG.

Better analogy, compare a long duration photo graph of a dancer to a short duration. The first shows you their motion, but nothing about their position, the second tels you their position but nothnig about their motion. The point of HUP is that the better you know one, the less you know about the other.

The whole "measurement changes what you're observing" is from the double slit experiemt with electrons. IF you send electrons through two slits, one electron at a time, without obersving which slit they go through you get a diffraction pattern. If you do watch which slit they go through, individually, you don't. THAT IS NOT HUP.

And it doesn't apply to anything not on the quantum level. People do not change where they're driving to when i notice them speeding. Giraffe's don't change how they mate once we take not of it. IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

I really hate people who insist on think unscientifically. Quantum mechanics applys at the quantum level. HUP is meaningless for large obects because \frac{h}{2\pi} is so small that its insignificant for humans. For electrons, its a very significant difference.
 

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