P.Chem1: Internal energy in isothermal, reversible reactions

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around two homework problems related to internal energy in isothermal, reversible reactions involving ideal gases and phase changes. Participants explore the differences in internal energy calculations for a gas expanding isothermally versus a gas condensing to a liquid, focusing on the implications of temperature and phase transitions.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the internal energy change (delta U) is zero for an isothermal expansion of argon gas but not for the condensation of water vapor, despite both processes being isothermal.
  • Another participant explains that the assumption of internal energy depending solely on temperature applies only to perfect gases and that phase changes introduce additional factors affecting internal energy.
  • It is noted that the internal energy of a liquid is influenced by particle interactions, which change during the phase transition from gas to liquid, leading to a non-zero delta U in the second problem.
  • A participant seeks clarification on the assumption of constant external pressure at 1.00 atm for the condensation of water, linking it to the concept of reversibility and equilibrium conditions.
  • Another participant asserts that the pressure must be 1 atm for the condensation to be reversible at 100°C, as changing the pressure would alter the boiling point of water.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of temperature and phase changes on internal energy, with some agreeing on the necessity of considering particle interactions in liquids, while others seek further clarification on pressure assumptions without reaching a consensus.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the limitations in understanding the relationship between temperature, phase changes, and internal energy, as well as the dependence on external conditions like pressure, which are not explicitly stated in the problems.

Puchinita5
Messages
178
Reaction score
0
I have these two homework problems, as well as solutions. What I do not understand is why the solution for one is not the solution for the other.

First problem:
A sample consisting of 1.00 mol Ar is expanded isothermally at 0 deg Celc from 22.4 dm3 to 44.8 dm3 reversibly. Calculate q, w, delta U, and delta H. (heat, work, internal energy, and enthalpy)

Second problem:
A sample of 1.00 mol H20(g) is condensed isothermally and reversibly to liquid water at 100 deg Celc. The standard enthalpy of vaporization of water at 100 deg C is 40.646 kJ mol-1. Find w, q delta U, and delta H. (work, heat internal energy, and enthalpy)

Note: both problems refer to perfect gases

For the first problem, the solutions manual says that delta U is 0 since the internal energy of a perfect gas depends only on temperature, and since temperature is constant internal energy must be 0.

The second problem, however this is not the case. Why is the internal energy in the second problem not also zero if it is condensed reversibly and isothermally(which means constant T right?) ??
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Puchinita5 said:
the solutions manual says that delta U is 0 since the internal energy of a perfect gas depends only on temperature
(emphasis mine)

The assumption that internal energy depends only on temperature applies only to perfect gasses. In problem two, you have a gas going to a liquid (not a gas). Therefore, because everything does not staying in the gas state, you cannot make the assumption that internal energy depends only on temperature.

A bit more details: The internal energy of a substance is composed of two components: the energy from the interactions between the particles composing the substance and the kinetic energy of the particles composing the substance. For a perfect gas, we assume that there are no interactions between particles, so the internal energy depends solely on the kinetic energy of the particles (which is directly proportional to temperature).

A liquid, however, has fairly strong interactions between the particles, so these interactions contribute greatly to the internal energy of a liquid. Even though the kinetic energy of the particles does not change when you convert a gas to a liquid at a constant temperature, the energy from the interaction between particles does change. Therefore, the internal energy changes.
 
oh wow. That was a great explanation, makes total sense!

If you wouldn't mind answering one more thing for me, for the second problem I'm a little unsure why we can assume (according to the solutions manual) that the external pressure is constant and equals 1.00 atm.



is the external pressure constant because it is reversible? I guess, does reversible mean any "change" in the pressure would be infinitesimally small, so basically constant P? I'm just not sure if my understanding of this is correct.

and are we assuming then that it would equal 1.00 atm because the external pressure is not given, so we just say 1.00 atm because that is about Earth's pressure at the surface?


or am I just totally making things up lol?
 
The pressure has to be 1 atm, because only at that pressure is the condensation of water reversible at 100oC. Changing the pressure will change the boiling point of water (i.e. the temperature at which the gas and liquid phases will be at equilibrium).

Of course, I probably wouldn't expect a student to necessarily remember this and it would probably be much better if the book actually gave you the pressure, but in theory, the question contains enough information to tell you that the pressure has to be 1.00 atm.
 
great, thank you so much! You were very helpful :)
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
18K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K