Phonon Lorentz Invariance in Superfluids - Papers?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of phonon behavior in superfluids, particularly regarding its potential Lorentz invariance and the implications of this for theoretical physics. Participants explore the relationship between phonons and Lorentz invariance, referencing specific papers and models related to Bose-Einstein condensates.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that phonons in superfluid experiments might exhibit an upper-limit speed effect similar to that of photons, questioning whether this behavior is Lorentz invariant.
  • One participant emphasizes the difficulty of addressing the question without specific references to supporting papers.
  • A referenced paper discusses the acoustics in Bose-Einstein condensates, noting that at low momentum, the phonon dispersion relation can resemble a "relativistic" form, suggesting approximate "Lorentz invariance."
  • Another participant clarifies that the term "Lorentz invariance" in the referenced paper is used in a limited context, specifically regarding the speed of sound in the material, which is not invariant in the same way as the speed of light.
  • It is noted that while the equations for phonons in low momentum limits may mimic Lorentz invariant equations, this does not imply that phonons themselves are Lorentz invariant, especially as momentum increases.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of Lorentz invariance in the context of phonons, with some agreeing on the limitations of the term while others explore its implications. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader applicability of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the dependence on specific definitions of Lorentz invariance and the limitations of the models discussed, particularly in relation to momentum and the frames of reference used in the analysis.

philton
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It is said phonon(not photon) in superfluid experiments could also produce similar upper-limit speed effect which I'm not sure if that's also Lorentz invariant.

Another problem is that I can't dig out those paper that demonstrates this kind of effect. Anyone ever seen any of this paper? Thanks..
 
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philton said:
It is said

Where? Is this something in the paper you can't dig out?

Bear in mind that, without a reference, it's going to be very difficult to answer your question.
 
PeterDonis said:
Where? Is this something in the paper you can't dig out?

Bear in mind that, without a reference, it's going to be very difficult to answer your question.

Oops, thanks for the remind:
ACOUSTICS IN BOSE–EINSTEIN CONDENSATES AS AN EXAMPLE OF BROKEN LORENTZ SYMMETRY
http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0109033v1.pdf

MATT VISSER \/ CARLOS BARCELO said:
In particular, acoustics in Bose–Einstein condensates has the interesting property that at low-momentum the phonon dispersion relation can be written in a “relativistic” form exhibiting an approximate “Lorentz invariance”
 
Last edited:
philton said:
ACOUSTICS IN BOSE–EINSTEIN CONDENSATES AS AN EXAMPLE OF BROKEN LORENTZ SYMMETRY

Ok. Note that they put "Lorentz invariance" in quotes; the "invariance" is in terms of the speed of sound in the material, not the speed of light, and it only applies for phonons of sufficiently low momentum. The speed of sound in a material is not Lorentz invariant (in the usual sense of invariance in terms of the speed of light); it will be different in a frame in which the material is moving than it is in a frame in which the material is at rest. So the phonon behavior discussed in this paper is not Lorentz invariant in the usual sense; the paper appears to be writing down all its equations in the rest frame of the material.

The interest of this model is not that phonons are actually Lorentz invariant; it is that the equations in the low momentum limit have the same form as Lorentz invariant equations in quantum field theory, so that the form of the equations for the breaking of the "Lorentz invariance" of phonons as you go to higher momentum might give suggestions for how a hypothesized breaking of actual Lorentz invariance at or near the Planck scale could work.
 

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