Physics PhD's: Would you do it over again?

[analogdesign]

That's a great citation, but it is not consistent with the facts as indicated in the budget summary. Have you looked at the budget summary? The biggest winner was scientific computing. The increase for BES will mostly go to planning for LCLS-II. I didn't see a lot of explicit "clean energy or climate" funding in the document. There is a bit of lip service to "clean energy" but not a lot of funding.

 

[Lavabug]

And I recently interviewed (and recommended hiring) the very person who took that postdoc. It was a dead end for him.

Good for him. I'm glad you added 'for him', there's no telling what would've happened if you ran the experiment again. I think the term 'dead end' is a little strong here, maybe you should have him post his opinion on whether he would do his PhD again in retrospect. Ending up in a good industry job like yours -which you claimed to like and probably would not have gotten with just a BS in Physics*- that pays well is not something to be dissatisfied about. Yes, PhD training is incredibly specific and didn't train you for your job, but so is practically anything that isn't trade school or an engineering undergrad curriculum, which according to 5 engineers I know personally isn't even remotely relevant to their jobs, something they actually pride themselves over (mainly macho bravado over having completed such a demanding undergrad curriculum).

*I insist on this because it appears that in this day in age, someone finishing his/her BS in Physics is not going to land any good industry position by a long shot. We see dozens of threads here and on other forums about bachelors spending 1-2 years to get even the most basic of entry level jobs, while I still haven't seen any phd's struggling to find employment of any sort at their level when they aren't taking time off for family or aren't geographically constrained (like any career in the globalized market we have).

Are you taking your generally *vastly* improved job prospects relative to physics BS holders into account? I think you're not seeing the bigger picture: you probably would not have been taken very seriously in the private job market with a science bachelors in this climate. So I don't think your idea here:

For my part, given a choice to do my phd again, I would not. I would have self taught some things after undergrad and jumped into my current career or something similar.

is a realistic one.

I also don't think getting to spend 6 years doing fundamental research on taxpayer dime to be a waste of time, but that's extremely subjective. If undergrad debt and solvency is the big issue for you, I completely understand why it would feel like a waste of time. Otherwise I really don't get you.

 

[ParticleGrl]

Ending up in a good industry job like yours -which you claimed to like and probably would not have gotten with just a BS in Physics*- that pays well is not something to be dissatisfied about.

We interview bachelors holders in technical fields all the time. They don't come in at the same level as phds, but can work their way to that level in a few years (about 3 or so) if they are good. We hired a recent math bachelors about 6 months ago, and I'd rather have had a physics major, but none applied.

I insist on this because it appears that in this day in age, someone finishing his/her BS in Physics is not going to land any good industry position by a long shot.

I think they are trying to find science and engineering-related jobs to the exclusion of others. At the companies I have worked for (largely in insurance), physics bachelors would have no problem getting an interview. The problem is largely that people who study physics want science or engineering jobs. They especially don't want "business" (finance,insurance,etc) jobs. The news I have is that getting a phd won't change things- you'll still likely end up in a business job.

Also, my first post phd job was bartending, which doesn't even require a high school degree.

I also don't think getting to spend 6 years doing fundamental research on taxpayer dime to be a waste of time

Sure, it was fun. Spending 6 years traveling the world would have been fun, spending 6 years playing video games would have been fun. I delayed adulthood (family, career,etc) purely to have fun scratching an intellectual itch. That is wasting time.

 

[Lavabug]

I think they are trying to find science and engineering-related jobs to the exclusion of others. At the companies I have worked for (largely in insurance), physics bachelors would have no problem getting an interview. The problem is largely that people who study physics want science or engineering jobs. They especially don't want "business" (finance,insurance,etc) jobs. The news I have is that getting a phd won't change things- you'll still likely end up in a business job.

I think you should speak for yourself here. The people I know who willingly stopped at the BS level did so out of lack of interest to pursue physics any further and yet they were systematically turned down for job interviews for jobs that involved programming or only a modicum of numerical literacy, the only 'real world' skills a physics graduate realistically has to offer at the entry level. I wouldn't call those science or engineering jobs.

Surely the average physics major's odds at getting an interview are higher than a humanities major's odds, but we're not beating the glut of CS, business/eco and engineering bachelors to these generalist business positions you are talking about with a bachelors in physics. You have to put yourself in the shoes of a physics bachelors today trying to get a job of any sort that isn't something they could have done straight out of high school. A career job. Any.

As for the subjective topic of time wasting, there are many worse and more permanent 'adulthood'-delaying things you could do in 6 years, like going to jail, getting bogged down in an addiction problem, etc. No need to kick yourself, you didn't do so badly.

 

[ParticleGrl]

You have to put yourself in the shoes of a physics bachelors today trying to get a job of any sort that isn't something they could have done straight out of high school. A career job. Any.

I've consulted at several insurance companies that would interview a physics bachelors for IT and data analyst positions, were one to apply. Get a few actuarial tests under your belt, and you also open up those actuary positions. If you know any physics bachelors actively pursuing insurance work and failing to land interviews, private message me.

 

[jesse73]

I think you should speak for yourself here. The people I know who willingly stopped at the BS level did so out of lack of interest to pursue physics any further and yet they were systematically turned down for job interviews for jobs that involved programming or only a modicum of numerical literacy, the only 'real world' skills a physics graduate realistically has to offer at the entry level. I wouldn't call those science or engineering jobs.

Arent you two saying nearly the same thing

The problem is largely that people who study physics want science or engineering jobs. They especially don't want "business" (finance,insurance,etc) jobs. The news I have is that getting a phd won't change things- you'll still likely end up in a business job.

As for the subjective topic of time wasting, there are many worse and more permanent 'adulthood'-delaying things you could do in 6 years, like going to jail, getting bogged down in an addiction problem, etc. No need to kick yourself, you didn't do so badly.

At least you didnt waste time being in jail or as a crack addict isn't a very compelling argument.

 

[Lavabug]

PM is in the works.

At least you didnt waste time being in jail or as a crack addict isn't a very compelling argument.

Ok, so that was a little facetious. The point was that getting to 'scratch an intellectual itch', get paid for it, and get immensely better job prospects than you would with a freshly minted BS afterwards is not terrible thing one should be embarassed about (nor is jailtime or addiction, but in contrast to a physics phd, that actually severely limits your job and earning prospects FOR LIFE).

IMO, the real problem is that some people (not just ParticleGrl) set some really unreasonably high bars for themselves as far as life acheivement goes (job, earnings, mortgage, and stable family before the age of 30, otherwise you are a failure that hasn't matured) and fail to realize what a relatively comfortable and priveleged position they are already in. You have options, and they are all pretty good. 6 years of academic work is not going to stunt you for life, we should stop pretending it does. High percentile first world problems, etc.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that a phd is the best thing they could do with their time by any stretch. I don't need to reassure myself either, I am dead set for one and fully accept the consequences. I just find it sad and slightly annoying that some people feel so unsatisfied with what I consider a massive acheivement and a step forward in their lives, because if that doesn't make someone feel happy I don't know what would. Yes, I am hippie with some semi-unrealistic ideals and I want everyone to be happy instead of bitter. Off I go.

 

[ParticleGrl]

get immensely better job prospects than you would with a freshly minted BS

I dispute this. I had much better job offers on the table before my phd then after. This was because of broad economic conditions, but its not a truism. Statistics seem to suggest that you'll earn more taking a job after a bachelors then waiting until after the phd.

IMO, the real problem is that some people (not just ParticleGrl) set some really unreasonably high bars for themselves as far as life acheivement goes (job, earnings, mortgage, and stable family before the age of 30, otherwise you are a failure that hasn't matured)

I'm looking at the opportunity cost of graduate school, and I'm comparing myself to my peers. Its not an unreasonable goal- its what every person I know who skipped grad school and went straight to work accomplished. Conservatively, grad school cost me at least $200,000 in just foregone earnings.

 

[Choppy]

Statistics seem to suggest that you'll earn more taking a job after a bachelors then waiting until after the phd.

It's probably worth noting that the statistics only say this when you work through them in most cases. Rarely do we see opportunity cost factored into these things. It's a lot more common to see median annual salaries striated by highest degree earned. And that suggests a different story.

Opportunity cost can of course be difficult to estimate, particularly for individuals looking at their own lives. But ParticleGrl makes a good point. The opportunity cost of graduate school is generally pretty high.

But perhaps we should keep this focussed on the question at hand. The original poster is asking for personal experiences and feelings. Whether it *is* better to have done the PhD or not is very subjective.

 

[ParticleGrl]

It's probably worth noting that the statistics only say this when you work through them in most cases. Rarely do we see opportunity cost factored into these things. It's a lot more common to see median annual salaries striated by highest degree earned. And that suggests a different story.

Also, you have to make the proper comparison- bachelors + 5 or more years experience vs. phd with no experience.

 

[jkl71]

You have to put yourself in the shoes of a physics bachelors today trying to get a job of any sort that isn't something they could have done straight out of high school. A career job. Any.

To a very good approximation I was as prepared to be a professional software developer the day I graduated high school as the day I got my PhD. It wouldn’t take much to enumerate what I learned in graduate school that has been useful in software, it’s very close to nothing. Not that I’m saying a physics PhD doesn’t look better on a resume (and it doesn’t really look that great) than a high school diploma, I’m only talking about doing the work.

I was one of the “would do it over again” people, but not because it did anything to enhance skills that I could use in a career.

 

[Lavabug]

I dispute this. I had much better job offers on the table before my phd then after. This was because of broad economic conditions, but its not a truism. Statistics seem to suggest that you'll earn more taking a job after a bachelors then waiting until after the phd.



I'm looking at the opportunity cost of graduate school, and I'm comparing myself to my peers. Its not an unreasonable goal- its what every person I know who skipped grad school and went straight to work accomplished. Conservatively, grad school cost me at least $200,000 in just foregone earnings.

Emphasis mine. Why do you do this? How is it constructive? Can't you do without it? What if your peers happen to be extremely high acheivers by all standards, are you going to kick yourself for not keeping up? If psychologists have taught me anything, it is that there's no quicker way to destroy your self-esteem and knock you off-track from any life goal than by doing this. Amongst my peers, almost none of who I went to high school with went to college and work menial jobs on and off when the economy permits. Some even have had several run ins with the law.

About 1/3 of my cohort in physics who actually graduated on time +/- a year got to go to grad school for a terminal masters. The rest are unemployed, and the rest about to graduate don't have much of any employment prospects to walk into.

I don't feel any better or worse than them. I admit I only managed this recently thanks to a lot of therapy to combat some pretty ugly opinions of myself and my acheivements.

Not that I’m saying a physics PhD doesn’t look better on a resume (and it doesn’t really look that great) than a high school diploma, I’m only talking about doing the work.

I was one of the “would do it over again” people, but not because it did anything to enhance skills that I could use in a career.

I wasn't suggesting it did give you career skills outside of academia (unless you did hardcore programming). I am suggesting you are more likely to get called for an interview than a bachelors for the same job in the present job market. I think you are downplaying how much a higher degree correlates with better employment prospects.

According to AIP, 60% of physics bachelors go back to school within the first year. Only 35% actually land a job of any sort:
https://www.aip.org/sites/default/files/statistics/employment/bach1yrlater-p-10.pdf

Compare with physics PhD's a year after graduation, where 67% get postdocs/temp positions, 29% get permanent positions, with a marginally lower unemployment rate fwiw:
https://www.aip.org/sites/default/files/statistics/employment/phd1yrlater-p-10.pdf

Maybe not a fair comparison since there is little practical incentive to go to school again after a phd. But looking at it coldly, 35% of bachelors get a job of any kind within the first year vs. 96% of phd's. I don't happen to think recent bachelors are stupid: if they could get meaningful employment fresh out of college I think they would take it no matter how set they were on grad school, all undergrad debts and the tightness of grad stipends considered. Especially in ones in their early 20's that can afford to start a phd later on. I know I would've if I could find it, taking the time to amass some savings and 'industry experience', but the prospect of toiling around for 1-2 years prepping for whatever career job that I had no college background in with no guarantee of getting hired is not very appealing compared to going straight to grad school (in my circumstances, as I am 27).

I cannot argue with what you could have done with those 6 years, you win on the opportunity cost argument. For all I know, you could have gone into stock trading and made a fortune during those years. You could have also done this fresh out of high school if you had the know how. If we want to do some peer-comparison, shouldn't we compare ourselves to the wizard young entrepeneurs that managed to do that without spending a lot of time in school? I'm sure there must've been at least one of those at your high schools.

 

[jkl71]

According to AIP, 60% of physics bachelors go back to school within the first year. Only 35% actually land a job of any sort

There may be a correlation, but I don’t know about causation. I would actually group the 60% going to grad school with the 35% that get jobs, since presumably most of them get some kind of TA/RA support, so the BS/PhD difference is only 95% to 96%.

Again I don’t know how things would have worked out for me without the PhD and anecdotal evidence isn’t that useful, but given the reaction I got looking for jobs out of grad school I don’t see how it could have helped much. One person was concerned that if they hired me I would bolt as soon as some (non-existent) great physics job opened up. Another explicitly said I seemed like a quitter since I was no longer doing physics and thought I would just quit his job on a whim (I’m not sure if this was a serious question, it may have just been to see how I handle rudeness, I did get an offer from this company, but I declined).

I also got a lot of “helpful” advice in the form of “why don’t you just …”. Nobody ever explicitly said this to me, and it could just be me being defensive, but sometimes there seemed to be an implication that if I were actually any good at physics, surely there would be something for me in that field (there were several times I wanted to show people my publication list along with the citations of my papers, again it could just be me being defensive).

Just one person’s experience for what it’s worth.

 

[ParticleGrl]

Just one person’s experience for what it’s worth.

I can add my own experience to that, my job hunt was similar.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I dispute this. I had much better job offers on the table before my phd then after. This was because of broad economic conditions, but its not a truism. Statistics seem to suggest that you'll earn more taking a job after a bachelors then waiting until after the phd.

Those statistics are deceptive because it is dependent on the economic conditions that the said bachelors graduates encounter that influence their overall earning potential. For example, a bachelor's graduate who graduated in the worst period of the financial crisis of 2008 faced a far grimmer employment situation than someone who earned a bachelors alone, say, in 2003. It would therefore not be surprising if, in 2014, that same individual may have reduced earning compared to his/her peer who may have graduated with a PhD.

 

[ChristinaJ]

Absolutely!

 

[-Dragoon-]

I think the only reason you should ever do a PhD in physics is for the love of it. It makes no sense on almost any other measure. If you are good enough to get your PhD, then you could make much more money doing something else. On the other hand money isn't that important once you have over a certain threshold, and you will still do just fine after getting your PhD; it's not like you will be homeless.

Please elaborate on the "doing something else" part. It seems many on here are under the impression that physics BSc's have employers kicking down their doors to hire them. From talking with the physics majors I know in upper years and my year, the vast majority feel they have about the same job prospects as they did when they graduated high school. Most are looking at doing more schooling, whether its graduate school or another degree.

 

[-Dragoon-]

I have a permanent job as a medical physicist. Just about all of my former graduate class mates are working in the field and seem quite happy, so I suspect they would do it over again.

To be honest I don't think I'm the exception to the rule at all. Even the former class mates outside of medical physics that I've kept in touch with who left academia seem happy with the choices they've made.

But medical physics is a licensed and regulated profession, so it's no wonder you are content with your choice as I'm sure there are no shortage of jobs in your field. I imagine the average medical physics PhD will easily find a good job in their field, while the average astrophysics PhD will likely never find a permanent position in their field.

Despite that, thanks for adding your perspective Choppy.

 

[George Jones]

To all those who answered they would, how many of you have permanent jobs working as physicists in either academia or industry?

I have stated this as part of my Mentor bio, but I'll repost

I have never been particularly interested in doing research, but I enjoy following research at a technical level, and I greatly enjoy teaching. I have taught, either as an instructor or as an assistant professor, at universities in five Canadian provinces, one U.S. state, and one U.S. Territory. In physics, engineering, and mathematics, I have taught 30 different lecture courses and the lab components of 15 different courses, from Physics and Society for non-science majors to Advanced Quantum Mechanics for grad students to (analog) labs for second-year Electrical Engineering students.

Currently, I am the Senior Lab Instructor (a faculty position) for the physics department at the University of Northern British Columbia. I came here as an assistant professor on an eight-month sabbatical replacement position, and it seems that I am going to stick around. Somewhat ironic, given my theoretical and mathematical tastes, but I really enjoy my work, my interactions with students and physics and math colleagues, and the fact that I get to teach some lecture courses

So, I do have a permanent job, but not as a professor, and it took me a long time to land the job. Also, because of my spouse (though, she wasn't then my spouse), I walked away from a continuing position at a small university, the University of the Virgin Islands.

 

[analogdesign]

Please elaborate on the "doing something else" part. It seems many on here are under the impression that physics BSc's have employers kicking down their doors to hire them. From talking with the physics majors I know in upper years and my year, the vast majority feel they have about the same job prospects as they did when they graduated high school. Most are looking at doing more schooling, whether its graduate school or another degree.

I think what Kurros was saying was that if you have the intellectual capabilities and work ethic to succeed in a Physics Ph.D. program you most likely have the capability to succeed in a more potentially secure and lucrative field such as engineering or medicine (note I said *more* secure, not secure). I agree with this statement. On the whole I would say Physicists form the class of the smartest people I've met.

If you're already a Physics B.S. student the die is cast to some extent and making the move to engineering or pre-med will be painful.

 

[Lavabug]

Please elaborate on the "doing something else" part. It seems many on here are under the impression that physics BSc's have employers kicking down their doors to hire them. F

You clearly have not been on this forum long enough, this couldn't be farther from the truth. The people here who actually have tried their luck at the job market know what it's like and post about it regularly, frequently encouraging others to NOT end their education with a physics BSc, myself included.