News Please support our troops in Iraq

[Ivan Seeking]

hmmm, then again..the majority of vietnam vets came out to be dependable, successful and very often top achievers.

Since we had a draft, your statement implies that most of all average young men were top achievers.

Next, I have known many VN vets. Many if not most describe their experiences in VN as nothing short of a nightmare [i.e. the ground troops]. I remember one of your so called top achievers - the owner of a couple of 7-11's in California - who explained to me in great detail how hard it was to return to rules and a normal life. After hosing down entire villages with machine guns, the old neighborhood just didn't seem the same.

Here is some good information.

...As war has become more efficient, the training and conditioning for it have resulted in increased kill ratios. The effectiveness of modern conditioning techniques that make possible killing in combat is irrefutable, and their impact on the modern battlefield is enormous. In addition, if men reflect too deeply upon the enemy's common humanity, they risk being unable to kill. Usually killing in combat is reflexive; the human being becomes a weapon. It is later that the psyche responds. This can be a lifelong process in which the killer attempts to rationalize and accept his actions. This process was described by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross in her research on dying. Grossman contends that, as in dying, killers go through emotional stages to reach acceptance of their actions, including denial, anger, bargaining, and depression. So likewise, he says, do nations. [continued]

http://www.peacemagazine.org/archive/v12n4p26a.htm

 

[BobG]

Kat, I don't think anyone here is foaming at the mouth over this. We are all well aware you are supportive of the war in Iraq, but it's not necessary to explain away and excuse every behavior of every soldier to support the war. I don't think there is any sentiment in this thread that this is a widespread attitude, but a single bad apple, IF the story is even true, which I think we all realize is unknown; so, we're treating this as a hypothetical scenario.

Maybe most of us realize the reliability of the story is unknown and that it's a single anecdote rather than a general description of US troops.

I doubt the motivation of the OP was to rid the military of one bad apple. I also doubt the motivation of the OP was to improve the treatment of dogs in Iraq. The combination of the thread title and article was meant to shock us into realizing that all US military members only join because they love killing and that they don't particularly care who or what they kill, as long as they get to kill.

I put the original post in about the same category as the Swift Boat Ads with the same risks - hitsquad could wind up smelling as bad as the swill he posted.

 

[SOS2008]

That doesn't make any sense. You say its their freedom of speech, then say its a removal of separation of church and state. Separation of church and state is about government sanctioned religion. It is irrelevant to freedom of speech. Could you explain that? I don't see that motive in a t-shirt - from either the buyer or seller.

I'll try this again, though aside from the "Support Our Troops" ribbons with a crucifix center, the topics of freedom of speech and separation of church and state probably should be different threads.

There are several issues in one. First is freedom of speech--the right to express a belief. Then there is the message itself, which others may or may not agree with (and may even be offended by, per the earlier example of the KKK). Then there is the difference between saying something and actually having that something done. For example, I have the right to say I'd like to kill someone. People may be offended if I say that. They have the right to disagree with what I said, but I still have that right to say it. However, what I say and what is done is a different thing. If I kill someone, I will have surpassed my freedom of speech or belief, and would be infringing on another person's rights.

The combination of patriotic and religious symbolism as free speech (God Bless America--I don't recall who brought up the t-shirts) could be what's causing confusion. People have the right to print these up, sell these, buy these, etc. I've only said I don't agree with this message (which is my right), and I definitely don't agree with their belief in removal of separation of church and state--the action they want to do, which would be infringing on other's rights.

I hope this is making sense...

 

[russ_watters]

You're making perfect sense right up until you make the claim that people who would wear such a t-shirt don't support separation of church and state... You're doing nothing to support that claim. What evidence do you have of that?

 

[SOS2008]

You're making perfect sense right up until you make the claim that people who would wear such a t-shirt don't support separation of church and state... You're doing nothing to support that claim. What evidence do you have of that?

I have religious family, associates etc. who I interact with all the time. These people claim they support separation of church and state. The problem is, they don't know/understand what separation of church and state is. It is the freedom of religion AND the freedom from religion, and as you said, it is about government sanctioning. I would be happy to start a new thread on the topic.

 

[Moonbear]

I have religious family, associates etc. who I interact with all the time. These people claim they support separation of church and state. The problem is, they don't know/understand what separation of church and state is. It is the freedom of religion AND the freedom from religion, and as you said, it is about government sanctioning. I would be happy to start a new thread on the topic.

While there are people who don't know what separation or church and state is or who would prefer to blur those lines, just because someone wears a "God Bless America" t-shirt doesn't mean they are one of them. If someone believes in a deity and wishes to pray to that deity to take care of their homeland, that is part of freedom of religion and doesn't automatically mean they don't respect others for their choice of religion or lack thereof, or that they are one of those people who wishes to blur the lines separating church and state.

 

[SOS2008]

While there are people who don't know what separation or church and state is or who would prefer to blur those lines, just because someone wears a "God Bless America" t-shirt doesn't mean they are one of them. If someone believes in a deity and wishes to pray to that deity to take care of their homeland, that is part of freedom of religion and doesn't automatically mean they don't respect others for their choice of religion or lack thereof, or that they are one of those people who wishes to blur the lines separating church and state.

I understand what you are saying--there are many people who are religious who believe in separation of church and state. However, I personally doubt these people are wearing God Bless America t-shirts that mix religious symbolism with patriotic symbolism--which indicates the combining of church and state. If they are wearing these t-shirts, I personally feel they don't know/understand what separation of church and state means. I realize people may not agree with my feelings on this matter, but it is what I believe... I've started a new thread...

 

[russ_watters]

I have religious family, associates etc. who I interact with all the time. These people claim they support separation of church and state. The problem is, they don't know/understand what separation of church and state is. It is the freedom of religion AND the freedom from religion, and as you said, it is about government sanctioning. I would be happy to start a new thread on the topic.

Please do, because it sounds to me like you are the one who doesn't understand the issue: you don't understand that the establishment clause and free exercise clause (and this issue has little even to do with free exercise: its a free speech issue...) are separate entities.

Its possible they don't understand it - its even possible they are lying about their belief, but not necessarily. There is nothing whatsoever about a "God Bless America" t-shirt that necessarily conflicts with separation of church and state.

 

[kat]

Since we had a draft, your statement implies that most of all average young men were top achievers.

Uh no...my statement doesn't "imply" anything. It states..and I will repeat it...with an addition...for clarity, lest you are tempted to twist my words again..."Statisticly Speaking" "
the majority of vietnam vets came out to be dependable, successful and very often top achievers."

 

[kat]

Kat, I don't think anyone here is foaming at the mouth over this. We are all well aware you are supportive of the war in Iraq, but it's not necessary to explain away and excuse every behavior of every soldier to support the war. I don't think there is any sentiment in this thread that this is a widespread attitude, but a single bad apple, IF the story is even true, which I think we all realize is unknown; so, we're treating this as a hypothetical scenario.

Riiiggghttt.

It's the expression of the opinion that it is funny to shoot a dog multiple times and find it's still not dead and continue shooting it more that I object to. In a war zone, it's pretty likely that the dogs wandering the streets are strays or feral, possibly abandoned pets, or maybe pets that people are afraid to walk, so just let loose. It's possible they are freely reproducing and becoming a problem, and even possible that population control is necessary. However, that still doesn't mean anyone should take that job lightly or find it funny. I'm not suggesting they need to run off sobbing after having to kill a dog, just that they shouldn't be laughing and thinking it's funny.

Reading comprehension issues or do you just stop reading after the first line? Let me repeat myself for your benefit. "People do what they need to do to handle the situations they face, sometimes killing animals is neccesary and so..making sport of it for many is the way they deal with it. I can't imagine it would be much different (if there is no animal control and dogs are breeding out of control) then when when people out here in the boonies who raise animals have to go out and shoot rats that are breeding under there barns and kennels. I can't handle killing animals, not even rats but I've heard a heck of a lot of hooting and hollaring when someone tags one of the dangerous rodents."

 

[Moonbear]

Reading comprehension issues or do you just stop reading after the first line? Let me repeat myself for your benefit. "People do what they need to do to handle the situations they face, sometimes killing animals is neccesary and so..making sport of it for many is the way they deal with it. I can't imagine it would be much different (if there is no animal control and dogs are breeding out of control) then when when people out here in the boonies who raise animals have to go out and shoot rats that are breeding under there barns and kennels. I can't handle killing animals, not even rats but I've heard a heck of a lot of hooting and hollaring when someone tags one of the dangerous rodents."

I read thoroughly the first time, thanks. It's possible this guy out thinking it's funny to torture a dog by shooting it multiple times without killing it is of the same mindset as those neighbors of yours, I'm not sure, but it wouldn't make it any more acceptable. Beyond that, there's also a difference between being proud of a clean kill, a goal of sport hunters, and being excited, even finding it funny, that after multiple shots you've still failed to kill your target, which even if they were out shooting deer or birds, I would find entirely unsportsmanlike. I don't care if they are acting like this in Iraq while in uniform or in the backwoods of Maine while wearing a t-shirt and jeans.

I have worked on farms, and I do know that sometimes the most efficient animal control is to shoot an animal, and this is done to prevent disease spread to the herd and humans working on the farm, but the day someone starts to become gleeful over the necessity of killing an animal is they day they should not be permitted to do that job. When you shoot an animal to kill it for animal control purposes, as soon as it's down, you check if it's dead, and if not, should be able to quickly finish it off with a single close-range shot to the base of the skull. You don't torture it for your amusement by continuing to shoot it at distance without aiming for a quick kill. If this soldier was able to spend the time digging a hole to bury the dog, there was no danger in a close-range shot once the dog was down.

I need to euthanize animals for my research too, and if I EVER heard someone laughing over it or saying it was funny that an animal didn't die immediately from the euthanasia, I'd kick them out without hesitation and make sure our IRB knows to not permit them to work with animals on anyone's protocol. It is not something that is funny or to be taken lightly.

 

[Gza]

umm so what do they do with wild, diseased...stray dogs in Iraq? Can you imagine this country (U.S.) without animal control?

That dog didn't look exactly wild and diseased, kat. And animal control in this country doesn't involve repeatedly shooting a dog in the head.

 

[BobG]

Evidently, they do shoot dogs in Iraq. It's because of the health risk. It's not a particularly popular policy, but it's also not exactly ideal conditions to find better ways of dealing with the dog problem.

http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/sefton022305.html

http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/iraq.5.2.html

 

[kat]

That dog didn't look exactly wild and diseased, kat. And animal control in this country doesn't involve repeatedly shooting a dog in the head.

Gza, In all honesty, I didn't download the file to watch it. The list of "Partnerships"
" PARTNERS
Free Porn!
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DareToSing
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on the sidebar kinda turned me off from downloading any files from that site. So, I'll just take your word for it. Also, I never said it was comparable to animal control in this country. So why you would make that comment, I don't know?

 

[kat]

Evidently, they do shoot dogs in Iraq. It's because of the health risk. It's not a particularly popular policy, but it's also not exactly ideal conditions to find better ways of dealing with the dog problem.

http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/sefton022305.html

http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/iraq.5.2.html

I thought that was the case. I also remember some stories about the dogs eating corpses in Fallujia..or somewhere... I think it would be hard for any young soldier to have to deal with that without de..animalizing the creatures..as I said before, people deal with things in a manner that allows them to phsycologicly handle them. Laughing and joking about something like this is quite likely just such a mechanism.

 

[misskitty]

Kat, I feel that you have a valid arguement. I tend to agree with what it is your saying. It would be very difficult for a young soldier to deal with any kind of action like that. It does concern me because my boyfriend is going to be deployed very shortly for a year long tour in Iraq, he's only 19. I'm worried about what being over there will do to him mentally. I'm worried he might develop some kind of mental stress thing because of what he saw over there. I agree with you, the laughing and joking is probably just a mechanism to deal with what they are actually doing.

 

[kyleb]

I don't quite see how one can "deanimalize" a creature for behiving like an animal.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't quite see how one can "deanimalize" a creature for behiving like an animal.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean to demonize them for nothing more than just doing what animals do? We do that all the time: that's what a mousetrap is for.

I tend to agree with the defense-mechanism /desensitization explanation for the laughing - that doesn't make it right, but it certainly makes it understandable. Its tough to picture how anyone would react to a situation where their life is constantly in danger.

 

[misskitty]

Actually, I was wondering the same thing. Could you elaborate for the rest of us? Thanks,

Funny you should mention mousetraps Russ. I have a few cats that take care of that problem, then again I live in the middle of no-where...the only thing I hate is having to shovel them into the woods, they keep leaving them on my deck .

 

[kyleb]

I was responding to kat's comment:

I thought that was the case. I also remember some stories about the dogs eating corpses in Fallujia..or somewhere... I think it would be hard for any young soldier to have to deal with that without de..animalizing the creatures...

And we don't demonize mice for scavenging in our kitchens, at least those of us who are sane don't.

 

[SOS2008]

This reminder was sent to me, so thought I'd pass it on (in this thread just because of the title):

March 19th, 2005 marked 2 full years since the bombs started falling in Iraq. As of last count, 1,516 American troops have been killed in combat, and over 11,220 have been seriously injured. Uncounted tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died, and millions are without electricity or running water. The Bush administration is in the middle of an optimism campaign on Iraq, and wants us to believe that a stable peace is around the corner. But most realists see years of chaos and violence ahead. The two-year anniversary of the invasion is an important time to come together with a solemn recognition of those we have lost, and a firm commitment to finding a better way.

 

[hitssquad]

Total troop deaths vs hostile-action troop deaths

1,516 American troops have been killed in combat

No. That figure is for total fatalities.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0303-09.htm

--
The number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq has topped 1,500...

At least 1,140 Americans have died as a result of hostile action...
--


The U.S. troops who are not killed by hostile action typically die by driving their Humvees into ditches.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030407-accidents01.htm

--
Since the war began in Iraq, one American soldier has been electrocuted, at least two others have drowned and nine more have died in automobile wrecks.

All appear to be victims of accidents, which so far are responsible for about half the fatalities among U.S. troops sent to the Middle East for the war.

"Just because you sign on the dotted line and serve with Uncle Sam doesn't mean you're immune from accidents," said Patrick Garrett, an analyst with the public policy group Global Security.org...
--

 

[kat]

I don't quite see how one can "deanimalize" a creature for behiving like an animal.

I guess this is what I get for making up words...people making up meanings
I only meant, not seeing them as living feeling creatures...taking away their animalness..and seeing them as objects..sport...what have you.

 

[derekmohammed]

Lets remember that the average IQ of a soldier at war is between 65-70. Due to lack of sleep, malnourished,,stress, ect. That is the same as having a Chimp running around with a gun. So these articles about the absurd things soldiers do in there spair time should not surprise anyone.

 

[scarecrow]

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/dog_shooting_in_iraq_for_fun_Mar_16_2005.html

--
March 16, 2005[/size]

Dog Shooting in Iraq for "Fun"

NOTE: Ogrish.com opposes behavior such as that below. We have provided the US military and animal organisation PETA details regarding the sender of this submission.

"Hi my name is M. D. formaly of A TRP 1-10 CAV 4ID and while in Iraq we had a sport of killing dogs whenever the Iraqis weren't shooting us. So when I shot this one at about 50 yards with my M4 and it ran yelping to lower ground, we had to finish it so my friends and I went to it and started shooting it. I ve never seen a dog take as many shots to the head at least 4 as this one did and then after we thought it was dead we dug a hole and when I picked it up with the shovel it came back to life, so we shot it a couple more times...its pretty funny."
--

Liar. He was shooting at an actual Iraqi...most likely at random. They care more about a dog than a human being.

 

[scarecrow]

Lets remember that the average IQ of a soldier at war is between 65-70. Due to lack of sleep, malnourished,,stress, ect. That is the same as having a Chimp running around with a gun. So these articles about the absurd things soldiers do in there spair time should not surprise anyone.

That IQ is at or borderline mentally retarded. So how can anyone support stupid troops?

 

[FredGarvin]

Lets remember that the average IQ of a soldier at war is between 65-70. Due to lack of sleep, malnourished,,stress, ect. That is the same as having a Chimp running around with a gun. So these articles about the absurd things soldiers do in there spair time should not surprise anyone.

Maybe Canadian troops. Care to share where you got those figures? Hint: Out of your ass is not a valid source.

 

[stoned]

That dog was a terrorist dog send by al-qaida to disrupt our soldiers ping-pong game.

 

[Burnsys]

you know.. the dog didn't stop at the checkpoint after he was told to stop!
He could be a religious fanatical suicidal dog...you never know...

 

[1123581321]

War is an ugly thing. This behavior is referred to a desensitization, and is common to law enforcement, and even medical (especially ER) work, etc. I'm not condoning or excusing this, but let's understand that soldiers aren't trained to defend our nation by being "sensitive" -- though I certainly don't excuse human rights violations per earlier threads on Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib for any reason.

Support the troops? As stated before, I also am not in favor of the mindless ribbons all over people's vehicles, and the God Bless America gear is down-right against separation of church and state.

I support the troops by not supporting unnecessary war. I support our country by supporting preservation of democracy right here at home.

unnecessary war? so let's just let terrorists bomb and try diplomicy.
I better get out of this forum and back to science, because it just makes me mad.