News Presidential Debate #3: Fireworks or Stale Bread?

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The final presidential debate between Barack Obama and John McCain sparked intense discussion, particularly regarding McCain's aggressive tactics and the effectiveness of negative campaigning. Observers noted that McCain appeared increasingly desperate, while Obama maintained composure, which many interpreted as a reflection of their respective leadership qualities. There was speculation on whether McCain would resort to personal attacks, with some arguing that such a strategy could backfire, especially given public fatigue with negativity and a desire for substantive discussions on issues like the economy.The debate featured the controversial figure "Joe the Plumber," whose concerns about Obama's tax plan became a focal point. However, it was revealed that Joe lacked a plumber's license and had financial issues, raising questions about his credibility. McCain's reliance on Joe's narrative was criticized, with some suggesting it highlighted a disconnect with voters' realities. Overall, the debate was characterized by a perception that Obama outperformed McCain, leading to predictions of a widening gap in support for Obama as the election approached.
  • #51
Astronuc said:
How the heck does McCain expect to give the same opportunity he had or Cindy McCain had in education?! Cindy Hensley came from a wealthy family. McCains family can't be that poor if his father was an admiral.

McCain went to military college, which is already accessible to everyone (willing to put in the effort).
 
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  • #52
Predictions on the reaction?

I will go with 55-45 Obama
 
  • #53
McCain's wife is hotter
 
  • #54
tribdog said:
McCain's wife is hotter

But clearly less intelligent since she married McCain?
 
  • #55
Obama ended on a very positive note.

I think this went something like the Kennedy-Nixon debate in 1960.


Obama wins!
 
  • #56
to me no one could go with mccain except the already committed. so 60-40? obama of course. except i thought mccain wrapped up well, and the "good job, good job" was nice.
 
  • #57
I'm pretty sure McCain was talking about the education he can give his kids and Obama can give his kids, not their own education when they were kids
 
  • #58
McCain really blinked a lot, to the point that it was distracting. He seemed twitchy and a bit too smiley.

Obama seemed controlled as always.
 
  • #59
well that education remark was absurd, i think only the wealthy can aspire to go to harvard, say, nowadays, as opposed to the kennedy days when there was "no highly gifted child left behind", i.e. merit scholarships that actually paid your way to harvard .

in 1960, a kid in the top 1% of SAT's, and having other top records, could go all tuition paid to harvard, whereas today a merit scholarship pays a tiny fraction of the cost.

the establishment learned the cost of actually making opportunity available to the smartest, and they concluded under nixon, that it resulted in a bunch of leftists taking control of the opportunities.

no one in power today wants to admit students to the best schools based solely on ability, as that may leave out their own children.
 
  • #60
I'm not touching this one with a 40 ft pole. I don't want to get my head chopped off.
 
  • #61
Game changer? No.

Obama was the better a third time.

The only question is whether the margin will widen. I'm not sure that it can.
 
  • #62
remember that old commercial where michael jordan and larry bird are discussing banking shots off Mars or venus and charkles barkley is floating around saying: "hey let me try, i can make that!"

i feel like charles barkley in these discussions: "hey guys, i really did meet timothy leary, cesar chavez, kenneth galbraith, adlai stevenson, hubert humphrey, heard malcolm x, bb king, james brown, sat at a football game with jfk,..."oh well, thanks for letting me listen to your youthful debate.
 
  • #63
Is every working American named Joe? What about Suzy Sixpack?
 
  • #64
well the poll of the ohio group on tv went 15/10 obama, which i point out is exactly 60-40 as i said.
 
  • #65
ZapperZ said:
I'll be seeing Kathy Griffin live during the last presidential debate tonight. I fully expect to be laughing my rear end off! So someone will have to condense what I missed in 20 words or less.

:)

Zz.

More of the same.
 
  • #66
Wooohoooo! Early results on CNN are 58-31 Obama.
 
  • #67
They have now identified how the polling breaks down. Turns out that Independents favor Obama by ~ the same amount: 57-31. That's what he needed!

Get this. Obama was more likeable by 77-21.
McCain was the most negative by 80-11, or something close.

David Gergen is all but pronouncing McCain dead.
 
  • #68
Yeah, I thought Obama looked much better on this one. I think it was Paul Begala in the CNN commentary who said that McCain came off looking like Grumpy McNasty.
⚛​
 
  • #69
On the Fox Text Message Poll its running 87% McCain - 11% Obama.

Sean Hannity and Dick Morris are crowing about how McCain crushed him.

I'm thinking there ought to be an FCC and FEC investigation.
 
  • #70
Ivan Seeking said:
David Gergen is all but pronouncing McCain dead.

Gosh dag nabit! I've always voted for the underdog. I'm switching my vote this November to McCain.

And there I was, thinking I was going to be living in an Obama nation...

oh well. maybe next lifetime...
 
  • #71
I just heard the Joe plumber bit and didn't feel I could stand much more.

I've never really seen Obama do much negative campaigning. Those 'negative' things I have heard were simply pointing out facts about McCain's (or Hillary's) track record. The anti-Obama ads I have seen almost always seem to be personal attacks.
 
  • #72
LowlyPion said:
On the Fox Text Message Poll its running 87% McCain - 11% Obama.

According to the CNN poll, that was approximately the split among Republicans.
 
  • #73
TheStatutoryApe said:
I just heard the Joe plumber bit and didn't feel I could stand much more.

I've never really seen Obama do much negative campaigning. Those 'negative' things I have heard were simply pointing out facts about McCain's (or Hillary's) track record. The anti-Obama ads I have seen almost always seem to be personal attacks.

I agree. How could Obama have not told that guy about S-Corporations. Is he trying to go mainstream or what? I mean, there must be 10's of thousands of business's in America that don't know about that loophole.

Oh wait... You're talking about the debate. Um... never mind.
 
  • #74
After reading the John Lewis statements again, I don't get what McCain's sniffling about. It's a wholly fabricated issue.

Lewis was clearly talking about the environment that they have been creating and not equating McCain to Wallace.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20081012/cm_thenation/45371531
 
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  • #75
Ohio plumber becomes focus of debate
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber

Earlier this week, when Wurzelbacher got a chance to speak with Obama when the candidate visited Toledo, he told Obama that his tax plan would keep him from buying the business that currently employs him.
. . . .
McCain then looked directly into the TV camera and said: "Joe, I want to tell you, I'll not only help you buy that business that you worked your whole life for and I'll keep your taxes low and I'll provide available and affordable health care for you and your employees. And I will not stand for a tax increase on small business income."
. . . .
"Not only do 98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000, but I also want to give them additional tax breaks, because they are the drivers of the economy," Obama said. "They produce the most jobs."
. . . .
In Toledo on Sunday, Wurzelbacher told Obama that he was preparing the company, which earns more than $250,000 a year, and said: "Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?"

Obama said that under his proposal taxes on any revenue from $250,000 on down would stay the same, but that amounts above that level would be subject to a 39 percent tax, instead of the current 36 percent rate.

"And the reason why we're doing that is because 95 percent of small businesses make less than 250 (thousand). So what I want to do is give them a tax cut. I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers, auto workers who make less, I want to give them a tax cut," he said.
. . . .
It would seem McCain, Obama and Wurzelbacher don't know much about corporate taxes. Even if Wurzelbacher's new business were to make more than $250K, he doesn't necessarily pay more taxes, and if face if he's smart, he won't pay any corporate income tax. It wasn't made clear if 'make' means gross or net earnings, i.e. before or after taxes and expenses. If properly structured, a small business can earn millions, as mine does and not pay taxes. Most small companies do not pay corporate income taxes.
 
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  • #76
LightbulbSun said:
Mccain is talking to Joe The Plumber now.
Joe the plumber says he is not going to start a business as his anticipated income of $250,000 a year will attract more tax under Obama.

Personally I think Joe is right.

If Joe would forgo an income of $250K a year because he might have to pay a small amount of extra tax then he really shouldn't go into business as he is obviously too stupid to run one successfully.
 
  • #77
Well, so that was it.

John McCain was taken to school, although he didn't have any class.

Tom Daschle: "2/3 of Americans already think John McCain is an angry candidate, it looked like tonight he spent 90 minutes trying to convince the other third."


Edit: I am so looking forward to this week's SNL. It's going to completely destroy Joe the plumber the plant. This guy is already voluntarily doing surreal interviews that can be consider as self-parody. Whoever he eventually endorse in this election, it will make McCain camp look bad.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/
The Joe file

Two readers with access to the Ohio voter file say that Joe Wurzelbacher's inluence on this cycle will be limited in one way: He doesn't appear to be registered to vote.

(And yes, the freelance opposition research on Joe began before the debate ended.)
 
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  • #78
McCain had some of the best facial expressions (like when Obama brought up fox news).
 
  • #79
Grading the Final Presidential Debate
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20081016/us_time/gradingthefinalpresidentialdebate

Time gave Obama an overall grade: B

McCain was given an overall grade: A-
 
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  • #80
Art said:
Joe the plumber says he is not going to start a business as his anticipated income of $250,000 a year will attract more tax under Obama.

Personally I think Joe is right.

If Joe would forgo an income of $250K a year because he might have to pay a small amount of extra tax then he really shouldn't go into business as he is obviously too stupid to run one successfully.

What do you expect? He's a plumber! He should hire a tax attorney for $250k/year and then he wouldn't have to worry about any profits.
 
  • #81
"Joe" is scheduled as a guest on Huckabee this weekend on Fox.

The question to me now is whether Joe was a plant, or is just a poor schlep caught in the media crosshairs.
 
  • #82
LowlyPion said:
"Joe" is scheduled as a guest on Huckabee this weekend on Fox.

The question to me now is whether Joe was a plant, or is just a poor schlep caught in the media crosshairs.

I just watched the Cavuto-Joe interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PnK...pelled_joe_the_plumber_into_the_limelight.php

He claims to live in a $90,000 house, and lives paycheck to paycheck. Let's see, even if all of his $250,000 were taxed at 39%, his company would net $150,000 a year. Enough to buy a bigger house every year for the rest of his life! He also called Obama a socialist. Does he think the current tax structure is not socialist? What exactly is Obama doing that politicians haven't been doing with tax structures for decades? He's simply bumping the numbers around.

Yes Astro, I know what you said, and I agree. 10 minutes with a tax adviser and the whole thing becomes moot.

My new opinion of Joe is that he is someone who does not want Obama to be president. And it has nothing to do with Obama's tax plan.

Art said:
If Joe would forgo an income of $250K a year because he might have to pay a small amount of extra tax then he really shouldn't go into business as he is obviously too stupid to run one successfully.

I now agree. No one that stupid should run a business.
 
  • #83
OmCheeto said:
I just watched the Cavuto-Joe interview

Joe the Plumber is looking more like Joe the Shill. (I wonder what he's getting off camera from Fox and/or Republicans?)

Another Republican distraction - false issue.
 
  • #84
Not that he's qualified to discuss politics, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Francesa" said this was Mccain's best debate last night, and that the economic crisis is not Bush's fault because Wall Street has been full of crooks for 40 years. And now the fallacious argument "no one ever mentions this, since 9/11 we haven't been attacked. Isn't that a good job by the president? They've kept us safe for 7 years."

This is proof positive that not all opinions are equally valid.Now he's harping on about how Bush's strong point was keeping us safe for 7 years. My god, this is such a dumb argument. And before 9/11 we were safe for 8 years so that must of been Clinton's strong point. :rolleyes:
 
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  • #85
It was just on CNN, the guy pretending to be "Joe the Plumber" isn't even a licensed plumber. The whole thing is a fraud. A fraud that McCain made a big part of his debate. OOOOPS. Might want to watch the gullibility there McCain.
 
  • #86
Evo said:
It was just on CNN, the guy pretending to be "Joe the Plumber" isn't even a licensed plumber. The whole thing is a fraud. A fraud that McCain made a big part of his debate. OOOOPS. Might want to watch the gullibility there McCain.

And so the plot thickens. :smile:
 
  • #87
Evo said:
It was just on CNN, the guy pretending to be "Joe the Plumber" isn't even a licensed plumber. The whole thing is a fraud.
That's not fair. He does work for a plumbing company, doesn't he?
 
  • #88
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber" :smile:
 
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  • #89
So the guy doesn't run a business; he isn't a licensed plumber; he supposes that if he did, and if he was, and if he knew how to run a business, Obama's plan would hurt him because he would make too much money.

Got it.

I suggest that Joe doesn't have a clue.
 
  • #90
Count Iblis said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber" :smile:
It gets funnier.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aWDHvDjnDnTs&refer=home"
:smile::smile:
 
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  • #91
LightbulbSun said:
... because Wall Street has been full of crooks for 40 years.

Just 40 years? Not since they met under the buttonwood tree where the old stockade fence used to be?
 
  • #92
LowlyPion said:
Just 40 years? Not since they met under the buttonwood tree where the old stockade fence used to be?

These aren't my thoughts. These are the thoughts of Mike Francesa. Read the whole post, it only gets better. :smile:
 
  • #93
I can't open jimmy's link.

McCain did Joe the Plumber no favors

You knew it would happen. Joe the Plumber's 15 minutes of fame in last night's debate have turned into a round of public humiliation for the wannabe business owner. The Toledo Blade is reporting that Joe has no plumber's license.

To make matters worse, the Blade also found that the Ohio Department of Taxation placed a lien against Joe because $1,183 in personal property taxes had not been paid. To pile on, the paper disclosed, based on divorce records, Joe's 2006 income — $40,000, hardly enough to qualify for the tax hike he's so concerned about.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcb_election2008/20081016/wl_mcb_election2008/mccaindidjoetheplumbernofavors
 
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  • #94
jimmysnyder said:
It gets funnier.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aWDHvDjnDnTs&refer=home"
:smile::smile:

Egads. Republican dirty tricks? Hoisted on their own petards?
 
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  • #95
Evo said:
I can't open jimmy's link.

It opened for me. Here is the first paragraph.
`Joe the Plumber,' Who Dislikes Obama Tax Plan, Owes Back Taxes

By Ryan J. Donmoyer

Oct. 16 (Bloomberg) -- ``Joe the plumber,'' the Toledo, Ohio, man whose complaints about Barack Obama's tax plan were featured in the final presidential debate, owes the state of Ohio almost $1,200 in back income taxes.
 
  • #96
I won't post the link, because Evo would delete it, but Robert J. Elisberg is reporting that Joe "the plumber" Wurzelbacher is the son of Robert Wurzelbacher, an executive of American Continental Corporation, the parent company of Charles Keating's Lincoln Savings. If this is true, the mainstream press should pick it up, though they seem to have lost the talent for investigative reporting in the last 10-20 years. McCain's still pallin' around with the Keating crowd. :smile:

Edit: Possible correction. Joe is said to be closely related to Robert Wurzelbacher Jr, who is Charles Keating's son-in-law and vice-president of Keating's bank's parent company. Robert is going to be going to prison for arranging loans from Lincoln Savings to a company in which he and Keating held interests, and which he knew were unlikely to be repaid.

Edit: (again) that NYT story was an old one, with a very recent date on the web-page header. Sorry for the confusion. Joe could actually be the son of Robert, as Elisberg asserted.

Thanks, Art!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE7DE123CF930A25751C1A965958260
 
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  • #98
Whoops, CNN reports that now Joe admits that he didn't understand the tax plan - that he wouldn't have been affected by Obama's plan as he suggested, even in his hypothetical example. It seems that he thought purchasing a $250,000 business is the same as making 250K profit. So Joe now understands the difference between gross, and taxable income.

Thanks Joe. Have a beer.
 
  • #99
Ivan Seeking said:
Whoops, CNN reports that now Joe admits that he didn't understand the tax plan - that he wouldn't have been affected by Obama's plan as he suggested, even in his hypothetical example. It seems that he thought purchasing a $250,000 business is the same as making 250K profit. So Joe now understands the difference between gross, and taxable income.

Thanks Joe. Have a beer.
Told you he was too stupid to run a business :smile:
 
  • #100
Ivan Seeking said:
Whoops, CNN reports that now Joe admits that he didn't understand the tax plan - that he wouldn't have been affected by Obama's plan as he suggested, even in his hypothetical example. It seems that he thought purchasing a $250,000 business is the same as making 250K profit. So Joe now understands the difference between gross, and taxable income.

Thanks Joe. Have a beer.
I'm disturbed by the fact that Obama did not point that out. I hope Obama learns the basics before he takes office.

I'm disappointed that McCain misrepresented this issue.
 

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