Problem using integral form of Work-Energy Theorem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem involving the integral form of the Work-Energy Theorem as applied to the scenario of the Earth falling towards the sun. Participants explore the mathematical formulation of the problem, including the derivation of velocity as a function of position and the subsequent calculation of time taken for the fall. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and technical explanations related to gravitational forces and integrals.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation, Mathematical reasoning, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the Work-Energy Theorem and sets up the integral to find the velocity of the Earth as it falls towards the sun, noting that the mass cancels out.
  • Another participant suggests using the relationship \(v = \frac{dr}{dt}\) to express time as an integral, proposing a substitution method to simplify the integral.
  • There is mention of potential substitutions that could simplify the integral, but the participant prefers a step-by-step approach.
  • One participant expresses gratitude for the assistance and acknowledges the complexity of the problem, indicating a learning experience.
  • Another participant reiterates the importance of redefining problems in advanced mathematics to find familiar solutions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to solve the integral, and there is no agreement on the specific substitutions or methods to be used. The discussion remains open-ended with various proposed methods and expressions.

Contextual Notes

Participants do not fully resolve the mathematical steps involved in the integral, and there are indications of uncertainty regarding the substitutions and their effectiveness in simplifying the problem.

skate_nerd
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The problem is that the Earth has lost all velocity and begins plummeting toward the sun. I need to find the time it takes for it to hit the sun.

Note: Primes indicate "dummy variables"

This solution begins with the Work K.E. Theorem:
$$\frac{1}{2}mv(x)^2-\frac{1}{2}mv_{o}^2=\int_{x_o}^{x}F(x')dx'$$
Where \(v_{o}=0\) and $$F(x')=F(r)=\frac{-GMm}{r^2}$$
Plugging it all in gives
$$\frac{1}{2}mv(r)^2-\frac{1}{2}m(0)^2=\int_{r_{au}}^{r(t)}-\frac{GMm}{r'^2}dr'$$
$$\frac{1}{2}mv(r)^2=-GMm\int_{r_{au}}^{r(t)}\frac{1}{r'^2}dr'$$
Earth's mass cancels out, as expected, and then we want to solve to get the function \(v(r)\):
$$v(r)=\sqrt{-2GM\int_{r_{au}}^{r(t)}\frac{1}{r'^2}dr'}$$
$$=\sqrt{-2GM(-\frac{1}{r(t)}+\frac{1}{r_{au}})}$$
$$=\sqrt{2GM(\frac{1}{r(t)}-\frac{1}{r_{au}})}$$
Next, we use the following formula to find time as a function of position:
$$t(r)=\int_{r_{au}}^{r_{sun}}\frac{1}{v(r')}dr'$$
$$=\frac{1}{\sqrt{2GM}}{\int_{r_{au}}^{r_{sun}}} \frac{1}{\sqrt{\frac{1}{r(t)}-\frac{1}{r_{au}}}}dr'$$
The above integral gets a very long and gross answer via wolframalpha, and when I try plugging in the bounds I end up with an imaginary number.
Anybody know where I went wrong?
 
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Re: problem using integral form of Work K.E. Thm

skatenerd said:
$$\frac{1}{2}mv(r)^2-\frac{1}{2}m(0)^2=\int_{r_{au}}^{r(t)}-\frac{GMm}{r'^2}dr'$$
$$\frac{1}{2}mv(r)^2=-GMm\int_{r_{au}}^{r(t)}\frac{1}{r'^2}dr'$$
Earth's mass cancels out, as expected, and then we want to solve to get the function \(v(r)\):
$$v(r)=\sqrt{-2GM\int_{r_{au}}^{r(t)}\frac{1}{r'^2}dr'}$$
$$=\sqrt{-2GM(-\frac{1}{r(t)}+\frac{1}{r_{au}})}$$
$$=\sqrt{2GM(\frac{1}{r(t)}-\frac{1}{r_{au}})}$$
Starting from here I would use v = dr/dt, giving
[math] T = \int \frac{dr}{\sqrt{2GM \left ( \frac{1}{r} - \frac{1}{r_{au}} \right ) }} [/math]

There may be some substitutions that will shortcut this, but I prefer to work one substitution at a time. The method isn't that bad, but you really need to see it before you can do it on your own.

Let u = 1/r. Then the integral becomes
[math]T = -\int \frac{1}{\sqrt{Au - B}}\frac{1}{u^2}du[/math]
(where A and B are the appropriate constants.)

Now let y = Au - B. Then
[math]T = -A \int \frac{1}{\sqrt{y}} \frac{1}{(y + B)^2} dy[/math]

Let [math]z = \sqrt{y}[/math]. Then
[math]T = -2A \int \frac{1}{(z^2 + B)^2} dz[/math]

Let [math]z = \sqrt{B}~tan( \theta )[/math]. Then
[math]T = -\frac{2A}{B^{3/2}} \int cos^2( \theta )~d \theta [/math]

You can take it from here.

-Dan
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: problem using integral form of Work K.E. Thm

Wow, yeah I don't think I would have ever come up with that on my own haha. Thanks for the help.
 
Re: problem using integral form of Work K.E. Thm

skatenerd said:
Wow, yeah I don't think I would have ever come up with that on my own haha. Thanks for the help.
It highlights something I've noted in the more advanced Mathematics...keep redefining the problem until you get something familiar! (Cool)

-Dan
 

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