Properties of an evolved universe

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties and behaviors of a universe that may have evolved under some unknown fitness function, particularly in the context of fine-tuning and complexity. Participants explore theoretical implications of such an evolved universe, touching on concepts from physics and mathematics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the fine-tuned nature of the universe could be a result of evolution in a multi-verse, suggesting a selection process that favors certain properties conducive to complexity and life.
  • One participant emphasizes that evolution does not imply a direction or goal, stating that biology, chemistry, and physics are interconnected, and the universe reflects the properties of matter and energy as understood through current physics.
  • Another participant suggests that if the universe is evolved, it might exhibit traits that indicate a fitness function, such as mechanisms for self-replication or conditions that favor the emergence of life more frequently than random chance would suggest.
  • A different viewpoint introduces the idea that astrophysical black holes could be a mechanism for creating new universes, proposing that the laws of physics might be optimized to maximize black hole formation.
  • Some participants express that the discussion is speculative, particularly regarding the implications of black hole mergers and the processes that might create new universes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of an evolved universe and the nature of evolution itself. There is no consensus on the validity of the proposed models or the speculative nature of the discussion.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the nature of evolution and the conditions of the universe that remain unresolved. The speculative nature of the ideas presented may limit their applicability to established scientific discourse.

McGarr
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Hello All :)

I've heard it proposed that a reason for the fine tuned nature of our universe in a way to allow the existence of complexity and life could be that the universe itself is the product of evolution in a multi-verse.

I don't want to debate around the anthropological principle as I am sure that has been done many times on here.

My question is this - what properties or behaviors would be expect to find in a universe that had been selected towards some unknown fitness function?

Is there any are of mathematics or physics I could research that would help me learn about the general properties of highly optimized/selected/finely tuned causal systems?

Many thanks,

Ian
 
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McGarr said:
Hello All :)

I've heard it proposed that a reason for the fine tuned nature of our universe in a way to allow the existence of complexity and life could be that the universe itself is the product of evolution in a multi-verse.

I don't want to debate around the anthropological principle as I am sure that has been done many times on here.

My question is this - what properties or behaviors would be expect to find in a universe that had been selected towards some unknown fitness function?

Is there any are of mathematics or physics I could research that would help me learn about the general properties of highly optimized/selected/finely tuned causal systems?

Many thanks,

Ian

Interesting question

Some of your words need clarifying. In evolution there is no 'towards' anything. There just 'is'. No end function, goal, plan, etc. Biology is just chemistry that is just physics. Every atom is what it is because of the physics of the moment.

I'll let others suggest mathematics or other methods. However, in a nutshell, the variables would be what they are in our understanding of matter and energy...relativity...quantum mechanics, etc. What we understand of our Universe is what there has to be. Particles and waves (or whatever they are)have properties and this Universe is a reflection of those properties. We have laws of thermodynamics, entropy, etc.

I suppose the answer to studying all this is 'Physics'. One can get into the formation of atoms after the Big Bang, heavier elements from exploding stars, the forces inside the nucleus of an atom. However, it's all still latest understanding of physics.

Some other Universe? Nobody has a clue.
 
tom aaron said:
Interesting question

Some of your words need clarifying. In evolution there is no 'towards' anything. There just 'is'. No end function, goal, plan, etc. Biology is just chemistry that is just physics. Every atom is what it is because of the physics of the moment.

Thanks for your reply.

I understand that evolution doesn't work towards anything. However, when something is evolved - that is it is the product of natural selection of it will have a tendency to exhibit the attributes that made it "fit". An obvious an example would be the potential to self- replicate (a-sexually or sexually) so one obvious trait that would suggest we live in an evolved universe would be if we discovered mechanisms through which this universe could create another. Or if for example the universe's fitness function was it's capacity to harbor life then we may find that the conditions needed to for life arising more often than would be statistically expected if the starting conditions were truly random. By starting conditions I meany anything acausal - so the fundamental laws of physics (whatever they may be) and then maybe things like quantum wave collapses, radioactive decay and the distribution of mass/energy at the big bang.
 
McGarr said:
Hello All :)

I've heard it proposed that a reason for the fine tuned nature of our universe in a way to allow the existence of complexity and life could be that the universe itself is the product of evolution in a multi-verse.

I don't want to debate around the anthropological principle as I am sure that has been done many times on here.

My question is this - what properties or behaviors would be expect to find in a universe that had been selected towards some unknown fitness function?
The selection would be for whatever process creates new universes. The only proposal I've heard of this is that astrophysical black holes might potentially form other universes with physical laws similar to the parent universe. If this were the case, then the laws of physics would be optimized to maximize the number of black holes formed. If there were some other model for the process that forms other universes, then that other process would be the one that is maximized.

I am somewhat curious what this model would say about black hole-black hole mergers, though. Either way, this is highly speculative.
 
Chalnoth said:
Either way, this is highly speculative.

Too speculative for PF I think. Thread locked.
 

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