Should abortion be a woman's choice?

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In summary: The line most people draw is when the fetus becomes viable outside the womb, around the third trimester.
  • #1
Hypercase
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0
hi
I' like all of u to discus the pro & con of this act.
Many people I have spoken to find this a henious crime.
One argument I heard was that th only diffrence between afeotus
and an infant is the location , level of dependence and size.
They further argue that none of the mother kill their children to
solve their problem then how canthe killthe feotus?


I take no sides for I'm still unsure I hope to read ur thoughts
and take a side so I welcome u all to post ur thoughts here.
 
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  • #2
All women who get abortions and all doctors who provide abortions will face the Fires of Hell!

Just kidding.

Is abortion murder? Well, as I see it, it depends on when the baby actually becomes aware of his existence. If the unborn baby has no consciousness, then I don't think it's murder. What is going through the mind of a 5 month year old fetus? Does he know he exists and therefore does not wish to be killed?
 
  • #3
So currently, until what stage in the pregnancy is abortion legal? Is there a large difference between countries, where abortion is allowed, until what time it could be done?
 
  • #4
Monique this disscusion is to decide whether Abortion is ethical.
Is it ok to kill that inocent life?
What I like to know is how do u justify taking inocent lives?
(I'm not taking sides I just want answers to these Qs so I can decide what is right.)
 
  • #5
So according to my believes, you first need to establish at what point during pregnancy it is still acceptable to abort. The question posed here is: when is it life and when is it innocent.

Is it wrong to tie tubes to prevent pregnancy? Think of all the lives that are being taken that way! Just an example..

I think a life definitely is being taken when the fetus has the ability to live independantly of the mother but is killed. Before that there is a grey area. So now I wonder, where in that grey area is the line current drawn and why.
 
  • #6
The line most people draw is when the fetus becomes viable outside the womb, around the third trimester.

This line can be extended in extreme cases such as the pregnancy is threatening the life of the mother, or when the fetus is drastically deformed, such as having no brain. The "partial birth abortions" or late term abortions, which are exceedingly rare despite being discussed so much, are administered in these situations.
 
  • #7
the act itself i don't believe is wrong, but the reason for the abortion needs to be individually screened...is a young woman able to support a child pregnant due to carelessness and seeking abortion because it was irresponsible sex? is it a mother who has other children, becomes pregnant, and finds out from a doctor her child will be severely retarded or ill and the costs and risks may not be worth it? was the woman raped, is 16 years old and has a promising life ahead of her? yes, you can argue killing is killing, regardless of the term of pregnancy, however i believe the current laws mandated in the US are adequate and fair...my big problem with abortion (at least where i live) is many women will be careless because of the safety net easily accessed abortion provides...this is where society, health clinics, even schools-yes our public schools need to offer birth control to men and women to prevent unwanted pregnancy...

you won't stop sex from happening, but if birth control is available and easy to get, you can stop unwanted pregnancies...
 
  • #8
I'd have to agree with Karrie.

If a woman just had sex, but did it carelessly and wants to kill the babay just to do it, would that be ethical? On the other hand, if a woman had been raped, wouldn't it be okay to rid her of the horror of the helplessness of the situation of the rape? If the reason is morally substantial, I'm pretty sure that it would be okay for a woman to have abortion performed.
 
  • #9
when sperm meets an egg, if nothing else is done, the now fertilized egg will usually implant itself into the walls of a uterous, start dividing into more and more cells, and eventually develop into a living person. for me, that this is enough for it to be called living, the same way a child is considered living, even though it is still developing.

that being said, even if you will think that a fertilized egg is not living, at least agree that it is the beginning of life. i personally believe that not letting a fetus develop into a fully living person is tantamount to murder.

If the unborn baby has no consciousness, then I don't think it's murder. What is going through the mind of a 5 month year old fetus? Does he know he exists and therefore does not wish to be killed?

according to your logic, it seems that it would be ok to kill someone who temporally loses consciousness. at that time, he doesn't know that he exists and might wish to die. you might answer me that this case is not comparable to a fetus, since this person might regain consciousness. well, a fetus will almost certainly gain consciousness when he is born.

So currently, until what stage in the pregnancy is abortion legal? Is there a large difference between countries, where abortion is allowed, until what time it could be done?

i have heard that in some countries it is illigal. i am not sure which countries those are. in america, thanks to the roe v wade supreme court decision (in my opinion, a terrible decision, but a discussion of that is for another thread), abortion is legal, but the states can place certain restrictions on its use. these restrictions are weakest during the first trimester, and are strongest during the last trimester. actual laws vary by state.

So according to my believes, you first need to establish at what point during pregnancy it is still acceptable to abort. The question posed here is: when is it life and when is it innocent.

Is it wrong to tie tubes to prevent pregnancy? Think of all the lives that are being taken that way! Just an example..

I think a life definitely is being taken when the fetus has the ability to live independantly of the mother but is killed. Before that there is a grey area. So now I wonder, where in that grey area is the line current drawn and why.

to tie tubes is not the same as to abort a fetus. without conception, eggs never develop into humans. by stoping conception, you are not murdering. if that is murder, then any woman that chooses not to have children is guilty of murder.

there is no line drawn there simply because the age at which an underdeveloped fetus can live outside the mother gets lower every day. 100 years ago, almost every underdeveloped fetus didnt survive. today, doctors are able to keep alive even 6 month old fetuses with the help of technology such as incubaters. in the future, they will probably be able to keep alive even younger fetuses.

the act itself i don't believe is wrong, but the reason for the abortion needs to be individually screened...is a young woman able to support a child pregnant due to carelessness and seeking abortion because it was irresponsible sex? is it a mother who has other children, becomes pregnant, and finds out from a doctor her child will be severely retarded or ill and the costs and risks may not be worth it? was the woman raped, is 16 years old and has a promising life ahead of her? yes, you can argue killing is killing, regardless of the term of pregnancy, however i believe the current laws mandated in the US are adequate and fair...my big problem with abortion (at least where i live) is many women will be careless because of the safety net easily accessed abortion provides...this is where society, health clinics, even schools-yes our public schools need to offer birth control to men and women to prevent unwanted pregnancy...

it is not wise to say that just because a person will be disabled, his life should end in the womb. many retarded and otherwise disabled people are living fulfilling lives, in spite of their disability. what right does another person have to make decisions about someone elses life before that person enteres this world?

and if the baby can't be supported, or can't be raised by the parents for whatever reason, the baby should be given up to an orphanage. many people are willing to adopt children, and there is a good chance that this child might get adopted, and live a normal life. and even if he doesn't get adopted, living through a rough childhood, in my opinion, is better than not living at all.

even in cases of rape and incest, i don't believe the child should be aborted. even though what happened to this woman was terrible and wrong, the bottom line is that there is a child in her woumb that didnt do anything wrong to her, and shouldn't be penalized by being aborted because of someone elses actions. I am sorry if this sounds radical and extreme to some people, and i don't think that it is fair that this woman will now go through nine difficult months because of what some evil pervert did to her. but the situation shouldn't be made more fair if that means denying an innocent fetus the right to live.

the one time that i believe that abortion is required is when the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother. in that case, murdering the fetus is the same as murdering someone who is about to kill you, and is an act of self defense.

you won't stop sex from happening, but if birth control is available and easy to get, you can stop unwanted pregnancies...

abstinence is the best type of birth control. it has a 100% sucess rate, unlike other forms of birth control. it is available to everyone for free, and requires nothing more than some willpower.
 
  • #10
Just to put another point into everyone's minds (which may or may not be relevant depending on your views), if it's ethical for a woman to abort, is it also ethical for a woman to refuse if a man wants his kid aborted?


(Interestingly, the only time I've seen this point raised was by a feminist who was defending male rights, in the context of accusing other feminists of being hypocritical in their views of what rights women should have)
 
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  • #11
Originally posted by Hurkyl
Just to put another point into everyone's minds (which may or may not be relevant depending on your views), if it's ethical for a woman to abort, is it also ethical for a woman to refuse if a man wants his kid aborted?
Wow, that IS a tough one. One more reason to have safer sex? Of course, accidents happen. There can be no good solution to that situation that I can see.
 
  • #12
My attitude is that until it comes out of the mother, it is only a potential person. After all, 50% of pregancies abort themselves in the first trimester, and we don't have funerals for them, do we?
 
  • #13
Originally posted by Hurkyl
Just to put another point into everyone's minds (which may or may not be relevant depending on your views), if it's ethical for a woman to abort, is it also ethical for a woman to refuse if a man wants his kid aborted?


(Interestingly, the only time I've seen this point raised was by a feminist who was defending male rights, in the context of accusing other feminists of being hypocritical in their views of what rights women should have)

but you are forgetting that when a man consents to having sex, he is also taking the risk of pregnancy...if he does not want this risk, he shouldn't have the sex...
 
  • #14
Originally posted by Zero
My attitude is that until it comes out of the mother, it is only a potential person. After all, 50% of pregancies abort themselves in the first trimester, and we don't have funerals for them, do we?

so, if a child is 39 weeks to term, it's okay to kill it? many babies are able to live fully healthy lives past 36 weeks term, the main reason they stay inside till 40 weeks is to gain a little more weight and fully make sure the lungs are developed...there is a reason why U.S. abortion clinics don't abort past 12 weeks term because of the grey line monique is referring to...zero, you are correct in stating that many fetuses abort themselves in the first trimester , once the first trimester passes, the chances of carrying the pregnancy to term dramatically increases, and then it is more then just a potential person, but a human being that is growing and forming...a woman who is 30 weeks along cannot just get an abortion at that point, because she has chosen to carry it this far, why not wait another 6-10 weeks and give it for adoption?

it's interesting to see how many people's views change some once they have children of their own, whether they are a mother or a father, it has an effect on you...
 
  • #15
Originally posted by Hurkyl
Just to put another point into everyone's minds (which may or may not be relevant depending on your views), if it's ethical for a woman to abort, is it also ethical for a woman to refuse if a man wants his kid aborted?


Well if it's the male that's pregnant, then sure he can get an abortion. The point is that it's the woman's body, and it should be her choice to make.
 
  • #16
Originally posted by Kerrie
so, if a child is 39 weeks to term, it's okay to kill it? many babies are able to live fully healthy lives past 36 weeks term, the main reason they stay inside till 40 weeks is to gain a little more weight and fully make sure the lungs are developed...there is a reason why U.S. abortion clinics don't abort past 12 weeks term because of the grey line monique is referring to...zero, you are correct in stating that many fetuses abort themselves in the first trimester , once the first trimester passes, the chances of carrying the pregnancy to term dramatically increases, and then it is more then just a potential person, but a human being that is growing and forming...a woman who is 30 weeks along cannot just get an abortion at that point, because she has chosen to carry it this far, why not wait another 6-10 weeks and give it for adoption?

it's interesting to see how many people's views change some once they have children of their own, whether they are a mother or a father, it has an effect on you...
There's more eating on a 39 week old fetus...

I'm all for the unlimited 1st trimester abortion, and the restricted 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions. I'm also all for passing out condoms and birth control and emergency contraceptives.
 
  • #17
woah i didnt know that Zero. Thats some scary stuff. Well I have to agree with English law when you can have an abortion before 26 weeks. However i only believe that abortions should be had if the baby was concieved under bad circumstances eg, the mother is too young, or the mother is a victim of rape, or the child will be retarded.

The problem is that you don't know what is going to happen if they don't want the baby. If the abortion doesn't go ahead then the parents could be cruel to the baby or whatever so its a thin line to tread.
 
  • #18
You know, though, I've seen what happens to people who have kids they don't want...they raise disfunctional kids who end up making at least as many mistakes as their parents do.

Plus, I am offended by the underlying 'pregnancy as punishment' theme that lurks under the surface. When people say 'you had sex, deal with the consequences', I always hear it reducing the fetus to the role of 'Divine retribution'...and if that kid suffers, too bad, it serves him right for being a bastard.
 
  • #19
I agree with you Zero. It isn't the child's fault that it has bad parents or is unwanted.

I don't understand why pregnancy is a punishment, rape victims don't have a reason to be punished, and young parents know the consequences of unprotected sex, there are no myths about pregnancy, its the 18th century or in fact 50 years ago. Its not a punishment cos they did it to themselves.

OK OK it sounded better in my head...
 
  • #20
Originally posted by Zero
You know, though, I've seen what happens to people who have kids they don't want...they raise disfunctional kids who end up making at least as many mistakes as their parents do.

Plus, I am offended by the underlying 'pregnancy as punishment' theme that lurks under the surface. When people say 'you had sex, deal with the consequences', I always hear it reducing the fetus to the role of 'Divine retribution'...and if that kid suffers, too bad, it serves him right for being a bastard.

pregnancy is not a punishment for sex, it is the end result of sex...that is why the human body was designed to have sex-for the purpose of pro-creation...the good feeling that accompanies sex is not the end result, but the bait that lures one to desire sex...

having the mindset that sex is only for fun is what gets people into situations of having to decide if they want an abortion or not because they did not have protected sex...i wonder how many abortions that are performed are for this very reason-irresponsible sex as oppossed to aborting retarded child to be, a rape that occurred, or health reasons to the mother...
 
  • #21
but you are forgetting that when a man consents to having sex, he is also taking the risk of pregnancy...if he does not want this risk, he shouldn't have the sex...

The particular argument I alluded to was that some feminists were destroying their credibility by asserting both that:

(a) If the father didn't want a kid, he shouldn't've had sex with me.
(b) If I don't want a kid, I should be able to get an abortion (irregardless of what the father thinks)
 
  • #22
Originally posted by mark1
when sperm meets an egg, if nothing else is done, the now fertilized egg will usually implant itself into the walls of a uterous, start dividing into more and more cells, and eventually develop into a living person. for me, that this is enough for it to be called living, the same way a child is considered living, even though it is still developing.
Big problem: I'm pretty sure that most birth control drugs do not stop fertilization, but stop implantation.

I'll actually have to somewhat agree with Zero here, but to not put too fine a point on it, very few people would argue that an 8.5 month fetus is not a viable human baby. At the same time, knowing how birth control pills work and knowing the real odds for a zygote, I don't think many people would argue that a zygote deserves the same rights as a born baby. Even those that say a zygote is a "potential" baby must concede they themselves qualified the characterization: "A baby" and "A potential baby" are not the same thing.

Knee jerk reactions aside, I think the laws should be based on the scientific realities, not the religious opinions. And the "pro-life" crowd needs to remember that "pro choice" does not necessarily equal "pro abortion."
 
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  • #23
Originally posted by russ_watters
Big problem: I'm pretty sure that most birth control drugs do not stop fertilization, but stop implantation.

the oral contraceptive fakes a woman's body into believing she's pregnant already thus fertilization will not occur

the condom just plain stops the sperm dead in their tracks

sterilzation stops the egg or sperm from reaching the goal to other...
 
  • #24
Originally posted by Kerrie
the oral contraceptive fakes a woman's body into believing she's pregnant already thus fertilization will not occur
Fair enough - I thought it was the opposite: it faked a woman's body into believing she was not pregnant, keeping her menstrating.
 
  • #25
oops, meant this to be an edit, not a quote...

Also, re: morality and ethics. People need to be a little careful taking the religious position at face value: its relatively modern and has changed considerably in the life of the Christian (Catholic) church. http://www.cath4choice.org/nobandwidth/English/cathwomen/abortiondecision.htm [Broken]
 
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  • #26
Wait, hold on and let's think just a minute(this means you, Kerrie, especially... ) Say a woman is too irresponsible to use birth control. You think it is a good idea to allow her to have a kid? What the heck are you thinking?!? The fact that she was irresponsible is reason enough to allow the silly twit an abortion, don't you think?
 
  • #27
I'd like to relate a story I read that pertains to this topic. Take from it what you will. It was published in a book called _Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom_ by Christiane Northrup MD, it was told to her by a Dr. McGarey-

"I can see that abortion is frequently reasonable, understandable, and the 'right' thing to do. The new light dawned with a story one of my patients told me some time ago. This mother had a four-year-old daughter, named Dorothy, whom she would take out to lunch occasionally. They were talking about this and that, and the child would shift from one subject to another, when Dorothy suddenly said, 'The last time I was a little girl, I had a different mommy!' The she started talking in a different language which her mother tried to record.
"The magic moment seemed over, but then Dorothy continued, 'But that wasn't the last time. Last time when I was four inches long and in your tummy, Daddy wasn't ready to marry you yet, so I went away. But then, I came back.' Then, the mother reported, the child went back to chatting about four-year-old matters.
"The mother was silent. No one but her husband, the doctor, and she had known this, but she had become pregnant about two years before she and her husband were ready to get married. She decided to have an abortion. She was ready to have the child, but her husband-to-be was not.
"When the two of them did get married and were ready to have their first child, the same entity made it's appearance. And the little child was saying, in effect, 'I don't hold any resentments toward you for having the abortion. I understood. I knew why it was done, and that's okay. So here I am again. It was an experience. I learned from it and you learned from it, so now, let's get on with the business of life.'"



I personally believe that each of us chooses, on some level, the moment we are born and the moment we die for specific reasons that may or may not always be clear to us.

Now, off the topic of the spiritual side to the matter..
If abortion were illegal women would continue to abort their pregnancies.. they would just do it in unsafe enviroments and with dangerous methods, potentially killing themselves in the process. Do we really want to take that step back into the dark ages?

I don't think any women takes having an abortion lightly. Even if she does at the time view it as not such a big deal, it will come back to haunt her if she doesn't face the enormity of the act. I know a woman who was the of sort who used abortion as a birth control method. Her youth was spent dealing with one drug addiction after another and lots of unprotected sex. Now she has to face the consequences of multiple abortions.. She is older and wiser and would like to have a baby but she always miscarries now. It's sad in some ways, but in other regards it's a very good thing that she didn't have any kids in her youth. She was a violent drug addict and likely would have been a lousy mother. It's just a shame that she never used birth control and now that she's older and mellowed she has to pay a heavy price for her youthful recklessness.

This may seem strange but frankly I would rather be aborted than be born to a mother who didn't want me. Of course that stems from my belief that we get more than one shot at life. I do think that a certain consciousness is imbued into a fetus at some point which differs from one to another but I don't think that if that fetus is aborted then that consciousness disappears into oblivion or doesn't get another chance at life. They just have to wait for their next opportunity.
 
  • #28
when sperm meets an egg, if nothing else is done, the now fertilized egg will usually implant itself into the walls of a uterous, start dividing into more and more cells, and eventually develop into a living person. for me, that this is enough for it to be called living, the same way a child is considered living, even though it is still developing.

Heck, why wait for that point. I mean, if the joining of an egg and sperm will produce a life, the the waste of a sperm or egg is equally as bad by this same logic. In this light, every woman on Earth kills at least one potential life every month. Men kill millions a day.
 
  • #29
Originally posted by Zero
Wait, hold on and let's think just a minute(this means you, Kerrie, especially... ) Say a woman is too irresponsible to use birth control. You think it is a good idea to allow her to have a kid? What the heck are you thinking?!? The fact that she was irresponsible is reason enough to allow the silly twit an abortion, don't you think?

if a woman is responsible enough to consent in having sex, then she or he is responsible enough to use some form of birth control, whether it be an oral contraceptive, or a condom (which is really the best)...sex education in america teaches this in nearly every school...if neither party is willing to take responsibility, then there is the option of adoption-i guarantee once a woman who is not ready to have a child does give one up for adoption she will be much more careful the next time around...

don't get me wrong, i am pro-choice, however, i think the majority of reasons for abortion are irresponsible...it teaches people-i can just dispose of it if i get pregnant...technology unfortunately is allowing people to easily fall back on this and this breeds irresponsible sex...

i think you zero are placing the sole responsibility of birth control on the woman, and this can get you men in trouble, men need to take responsibility just as much and that means carrying an extra condom (or two if he's really lucky)...
 
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  • #30
Originally posted by megashawn
Heck, why wait for that point. I mean, if the joining of an egg and sperm will produce a life, the the waste of a sperm or egg is equally as bad by this same logic. In this light, every woman on Earth kills at least one potential life every month. Men kill millions a day.

it's not a potential life unless the sperm and egg join...then it's a miracle if that conjoined sperm/egg make it past 12 weeks term...
 
  • #31
Originally posted by Kerrie
it's not a potential life unless the sperm and egg join...then it's a miracle if that conjoined sperm/egg make it past 12 weeks term...

How is it not a potential life?

Given a sperm and an egg, a human can form. Joining doesn't magically make potential appear. If the potential is there after the joining, it was there before the joining.
 
  • #32
Originally posted by master_coda
Given a sperm and an egg, a human can form. Joining doesn't magically make potential appear. If the potential is there after the joining, it was there before the joining.
I guess its a matter of odds. But yeah, then you get a pretty subjective "potential."
 
  • #33
Originally posted by Kerrie
if a woman is responsible enough to consent in having sex, then she or he is responsible enough to use some form of birth control, whether it be an oral contraceptive, or a condom (which is really the best)...sex education in america teaches this in nearly every school...if neither party is willing to take responsibility, then there is the option of adoption-i guarantee once a woman who is not ready to have a child does give one up for adoption she will be much more careful the next time around...

don't get me wrong, i am pro-choice, however, i think the majority of reasons for abortion are irresponsible...it teaches people-i can just dispose of it if i get pregnant...technology unfortunately is allowing people to easily fall back on this and this breeds irresponsible sex...

i think you zero are placing the sole responsibility of birth control on the woman, and this can get you men in trouble, men need to take responsibility just as much and that means carrying an extra condom (or two if he's really lucky)...
I don't buy your argument of punishing women for activities you don't agree with. Abortion on demand is the best choice for people too stupid to make any other choice.

And you know what? Yeah, it is a woman's responsibility; she's the one who could get stuck with the kid, after all.
 
  • #34
Originally posted by Zero
I don't buy your argument of punishing women for activities you don't agree with. Abortion on demand is the best choice for people too stupid to make any other choice.

And you know what? Yeah, it is a woman's responsibility; she's the one who could get stuck with the kid, after all.

get stuck with the kid? you make it sound as if children are horrible beings...i tell you what's worse then getting "stuck with the kid", is the father who has to pay child support but doesn't get to see his child grow up...nowadays, parents who don't pay child support can land some serious jail time, have their taxes garnished and lose their licenses...all this while the mom has the benefit and joy of seeing her child grow and learn-it's very rewarding...child rearing isn't a punishment i assure you...it's a respsonsibility that can show you many things...

what did irresponsible women do 200 years ago when they were knocked up? abortion clinics did not exist back then therefore people had to deal with a real life situation...to me, abortion used as birth control only encourages more irresponsible sex because women think, "oh, if i get pregnant, i can just get an abortion"...of course abortion does not knock out the sexually transmitted diseases either-which is far worse and embarrassing in my opinion...
 
  • #35
Originally posted by Kerrie
what did irresponsible women do 200 years ago when they were knocked up? abortion clinics did not exist back then

Abortion clinics may not have existed but women have been having abortions for thousands of years. Ever since they discovered that certain herbs triggered miscarriage.

Pennyroyal tea anyone?
 

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