Prove the Langrangian is not unique

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around proving the non-uniqueness of the Lagrangian in classical mechanics, specifically focusing on the conditions under which a modified Lagrangian still satisfies Lagrange's equations. The original poster presents a problem involving a Lagrangian for a system with n degrees of freedom and questions how to demonstrate this through direct substitution.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to solve the problem using direct substitution but expresses uncertainty about this approach, having found an alternative method using the action integral. Other participants suggest using a new Lagrangian and question under what conditions it satisfies Lagrange's equations. There is also a discussion about the implications of the function F depending on velocity.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants exploring different interpretations of the problem and questioning the assumptions regarding the function F. Some guidance has been offered regarding the conditions under which the modified Lagrangian satisfies Lagrange's equations, but no consensus has been reached.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the function F should not depend on velocity, as this would affect the equivalence of the two Lagrangians. This introduces constraints on the problem that are being actively discussed.

It's me
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Question:
If L is a Lagrangian for a system of n degrees of freedom satisfying Lagrange's equations show by direct substitution that

http://qlx.is.quoracdn.net/main-74d090d14ee4fea0.png

also satisfies Lagrange's equations where F is any arbitrary but differentiable function of its arguments.
Attempt at a solution:
I'm not really sure how to solve this problem by direct substitution; I found a way to do it using the action integral but not direct substitution. Any clues or help on how to approach the problem?
 
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Use L' as the new lagrangian in Lagrange's equation.
Does L' satisfy that equation? Under what condition?
 
I got that L' satisfies that equation when the derivative for Lagrange's equation of F is 0.
 
You should probably show your work.
You can use the LaTeX button below to help you typeset your equations.
 
I don't know how to write LaTeX
11251701_10153310866401660_2140605752_n.jpg
 
It's me said:
Question:
If L is a Lagrangian for a system of n degrees of freedom satisfying Lagrange's equations show by direct substitution that

http://qlx.is.quoracdn.net/main-74d090d14ee4fea0.png

also satisfies Lagrange's equations where F is any arbitrary but differentiable function of its arguments.

Your question is wrong. The function F can not depend on the velocity \dot{q}(t). If it does, then d F /d t will depend (at least linearly) on the acceleration \ddot{q}(t). This in turns mean that the two Lagrangians are not equivalent to each other. So, try to solve the exercise for the function F(t) = F( q(t) , t ).

This is one part of well know theorem which states

A function \Lambda of q(t), \dot{q}(t) and t satisfies Lagrange’s equations identically (i.e., independent of the q_{a}(t)) if, and only if, it is the total time derivative d F / dt of some function F ( q(t) , t ).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

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