Proving an inequality from an equation

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Happiness
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Inequality
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving the inequality ##v_f < v_0## for positive variables ##v_0## and ##v_f##, which represent the initial and final speeds of a ball thrown upwards in a medium with a drag force. Participants explore various mathematical approaches to establish this inequality without using graphical methods.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest using the inequality -ln(1-x) > ln(1+x) for positive x as a starting point.
  • Others express concern that this inequality is only valid for positive x < 1, questioning how to prove ##v_f < v_0## for all positive values of ##v_0##.
  • One participant introduces a variable ##c = \frac{g}{\alpha}## and attempts to derive inequalities involving logarithmic functions, but identifies issues with the validity of their approach.
  • Another participant proposes introducing new variables and considers the function f(x) = x - ln(1+x), noting its increasing nature and attempting to relate it to the inequality in question.
  • Some participants correct earlier claims and refine their arguments, indicating that the function f has a minimum at x=0 and is monotonically increasing for positive x, leading to the conclusion that a < 1, which corresponds to ##v_f < v_0##.
  • There are ongoing discussions about the correctness of the mathematical steps and the relationships between the variables involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the validity of the approaches and the correctness of the mathematical steps. Multiple competing views and uncertainties remain regarding the proof of the inequality.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note limitations in their arguments, such as the dependence on the condition that x < 1 for certain logarithmic inequalities and the need for careful consideration of the definitions and domains of the functions involved.

Happiness
Messages
686
Reaction score
30
Given that ##v_0## and ##v_f## are positive variables related by the equation
Screen Shot 2016-06-24 at 4.52.38 am.png

where ##g## and ##\alpha## are positive constants.

Can you show that ##v_f<v_0## for all positive values of ##v_0## using a non-graphical method?

Physically, ##v_0## and ##v_f## are the initial and final speeds (at the same height) of a ball thrown upwards in a medium with a drag force ##F=-m\alpha v##.
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
Yes. Hint: -ln(1-x) > ln(1+x) for positive x.
 
mfb said:
Yes. Hint: -ln(1-x) > ln(1+x) for positive x.

But this is only true for positive ##x<1##. How then can we show ##v_f<v_0## for all positive values of ##v_0##?

Using the hint, I can only get to ##y-\ln(1+y)>\ln(1+x)-x##, where ##x=\frac{\alpha v_0}{g}## and ##y=\frac{\alpha v_f}{g}##.
 
Happiness said:
But this is only true for positive ##x<1##.
Your logarithm is not defined otherwise, a vf where the logarithm is not defined cannot be a solution.

But does that have a solution at all?
Let ##c=\frac{g}{\alpha}##, and using the inequality for the denominator, I get

$$v_0 + v_f \leq c \ln(1+v_0/c) + c \ln(1+v_f/c)$$
That is wrong, as x > ln(1+x).
 
mfb said:
But does that have a solution at all?
Let ##c=\frac{g}{\alpha}##, and using the inequality for the denominator, I get

$$v_0 + v_f \leq c \ln(1+v_0/c) + c \ln(1+v_f/c)$$
That is wrong, as x > ln(1+x).

Using the hint

##c\ln(\frac{1+v_0/c}{1-v_f/c})>c\ln(1+v_0/c)+c\ln(1+v_f/c)##

So

##v_0+v_f>c\ln(1+v_0/c)+c\ln(1+v_f/c)##

Your logarithm is not defined otherwise, a vf where the logarithm is not defined cannot be a solution.

Indeed, ##v_f<\frac{g}{\alpha}##. It can be easily shown that ##\frac{g}{\alpha}## is the terminal velocity. So, indeed, only positive ##x<1## needs to be considered.
 
Oh right, wrong direction. Hmm, making it symmetric does not help. Okay, more mathematics.

Introduce V as ##V=\frac{v_0 \alpha}{g}## and ##a>0## as ##v_f=a v_0##. Then we get
$$V+aV = ln(1+V) - ln(1-aV)$$
Here is a plot

Consider f(x)=x-ln(1+x) where x>0.
##f'(x)=\frac{x}{x+1} > 0##
Rewrite the equation from above:
$$V-ln(1+V)- aV + ln(1-aV) = 2aV$$
$$f(V) - f(aV) = 2 aV$$As a>0, V>0, we get
$$f(V) > f(aV)$$
We established that f is increasing monotonically, therefore a<1 which corresponds to ##v_f < v_0##.
 
mfb said:
Rewrite the equation from above:
$$V-ln(1+V)- aV + ln(1-aV) = 2aV$$
$$f(V) - f(aV) = 2 aV$$

This doesn't seem right.

##f(V) - f(aV)=V-\ln(1+V)-\bigg(aV - \ln(1+aV)\bigg)=V-\ln(1+V)- aV + \ln(1+aV)##

The last term is different from the LHS in the previous step.

And the RHS should be ##-2aV##.
 
Last edited:
That should work now:
Consider f(x)=x-ln(1+x) where x>-1.
$$f'(x)=\frac{x}{x+1}$$
Note that |f'(-x)| > |f'(x)| for 0<x<1.
Via integration from 0 to x, we can conclude that f(-x)>f(x) for positive x.
$$V+aV = ln(1+V) - ln(1-aV)$$
$$V- ln(1+V) = -aV - ln(1+(-aV))$$
$$f(V) = f(-aV) > f(aV)$$
$$f(V) > f(aV)$$
The function f has a minimum at x=0 and is monotonically increasing for positive x.
=> a < 1
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Happiness

Similar threads

  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
Replies
38
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 53 ·
2
Replies
53
Views
5K
Replies
5
Views
14K
Replies
8
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
8K